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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 13:51 
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Interesting article in the Daily Mail

Quote:
Toyota factory turns landscape to arid wilderness

By MARTIN DELGADO, Mail on Sunday
Last updated at 22:36pm on 18th November 2006

The 'green-living' Toyota Prius has become the ultimate statement for those seeking to stress their commitment to the environment.

However, the environment-saving credentials of the cars are seriously undermined by the disclosure that one of the car's essential components is produced at a factory that has created devastation likened to the arid environment of the moon.

So many plants and trees around the factory at Sudbury in Ontario, Canada, have died that astronauts from Nasa practised driving moon buggies on the outskirts of the city because it was considered the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape.

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Unlike normal cars, hybrids such as the Prius, whose proud owners include Gwyneth Paltrow, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and ex-Tory leader Michael Howard, are powered by a battery that contains nickel - as well as a traditional petrol engine.

Toyota gets the metal from a Canadian company whose smelting facility at Sudbury has spewed sulphur dioxide into the air for more than a century.

The car giant buys about 1,000 tons a year from the plant, which is owned by Inco, one of the world's largest nickel-mining companies.

Fumes emerging from the factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in outer space.

Although efforts have been made in recent years to reduce emissions from the plant's 1,250ft chimney - dubbed the Superstack - campaigners say the factory is still respon-sible for some of the worst pollution in North America.

David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada, said: "The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside.

"The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute the pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout right across northern Ontario. Things improved in the Nineties but the plant is still responsible for large-scale emissions of sulphur dioxide.

"Sudbury remains a major environmental and health problem. The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high."

Once the nickel is smelted it is sent 10,000 miles on a container ship journey which in itself consumes vast quantities of fuel and energy.

First it is shipped to Europe's biggest nickel refinery at Clydach near Swansea, South Wales. From there it is transported to the Chinese cities of Dalian and Shenyang to be turned into a lightweight substance called nickel foam.

The final stage of the manufacturing process takes place in Japan where the Prius batteries are made.

Toyota produced nearly 180,000 Prius cars last year, some 4,000 of which were sold in Britain. Last week 14 MPs from all parties claimed they had exchanged their petrol-guzzling vehicles for a Prius or similar hybrid.

But some experts doubt whether the Prius even wins the argument over fuel consumption.

Robert Fowler, of the Battery Vehicle Association, said: "It is questionable whether it does any more miles to the gallon than a good diesel.

"The hybrid system has a very small battery so most of the time it's operating as a petrol car, particularly out of town and above 30mph."

A Toyota spokesman said last night: "I cannot confirm the source of the nickel used in the Prius battery. It is true there is a slight increase in the energy required to produce the materials for the car."

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 14:19 
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Dixie wrote:
So many plants and trees around the factory at Sudbury in Ontario, Canada, have died that astronauts from Nasa practised driving moon buggies on the outskirts of the city because it was considered the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape.


This sentence really makes me question the credibility of the whole article. To start with, no one has been to the moon for 34 years and hybrid cars haven't been in production for that long. Secondly, anywhere that plants ever grew can't be that like the moon. Surely the stony deserts would be a better choice?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 14:55 
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It is a fact however, that america consistantly refuses to sign any international agreement to reduce pollution despite being one of the main contributors.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 15:16 
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Zamzara wrote:
To start with, no one has been to the moon for 34 years and hybrid cars haven't been in production for that long.


The plant has been there that long however, the article is simply indicating the pollution levels back then were bad enough to kill off the vegetation, and are still crappy enough to affect the environmental goodness of anything relying on the nickel it produces.

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Secondly, anywhere that plants ever grew can't be that like the moon. Surely the stony deserts would be a better choice?


This page was the first to pop out of Google which backs up the story...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 15:18 
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Much of the green bandwagon needs very careful scrutiny in a system context. There are big big questions...

- Do photovoltaic solar cells take more energy to produce than they will ever produce? (I think they do.)

- Do wind farms take more energy to produce than they will ever produce? (I think they do.)

- Do hybrid vehciles like the Prius save energy over a lifetime (dust to dust energy cost?) (no chance).

Have we got any 'green' policies that are systematically sound beyond the obvious 'waste less' layer?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 18:44 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
- Do hybrid vehciles like the Prius save energy over a lifetime (dust to dust energy cost?) (no chance).

Someone in the USA has just completed a study along these lines. IIRC dust to dust energy cost of a Prius turned out to be higher than a Hummer H3. Also the hybrid Honda Accord was higher than the conventional version of the same car. Haven't read through it all yet but fingers seem to be pointed at the need for extra production lines and disposal facilities for the electric motors and batteries.

Edit: Study here.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 20:51 
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Biomass generators and generators/heaters that use waste matter are the only sensible alternative. You can get a lot of energy out of sewage and other biomass. Solar is a waste of effort. Any energy generation system which uses more energy to build than it produces within its useful lifetime should be considered a non starter. Question is are conventional power stations any different in this respect? I'd be interested to know...

The dust to dust report is an interesting read. They are supposed to be doing one on european cars. It's nice to see some independent organisation bothering to do something like this to counteract the greenies misinformation and prejudice.

Well built, well specced cars which will last 15 years have to be more environmentally friendly than disposable buzz boxes which last 5 or 6 and are uneconomical to repair.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 21:07 
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teabelly wrote:
Biomass generators and generators/heaters that use waste matter are the only sensible alternative. You can get a lot of energy out of sewage and other biomass. Solar is a waste of effort. Any energy generation system which uses more energy to build than it produces within its useful lifetime should be considered a non starter. Question is are conventional power stations any different in this respect? I'd be interested to know...

The dust to dust report is an interesting read. They are supposed to be doing one on european cars. It's nice to see some independent organisation bothering to do something like this to counteract the greenies misinformation and prejudice.

Well built, well specced cars which will last 15 years have to be more environmentally friendly than disposable buzz boxes which last 5 or 6 and are uneconomical to repair.



when I was at agricultural college in the early '90's the college frm had a digester. It was a big vat like a cows rumen that basicly ate shit. you fed it with all the normal farm yard manure that you would spread on the land. Then it gurgled away like a cow and had to be treated like an animal. Out of it would come very rich liquor that was used as liquid fertiliser, a peaty composty material and important to this convertsation, methane gas. this gas was used to fuel a Ford 4 cyl industrial engine and it powered a generator.

Now I wouldn't like to say weather or not this very, very expensive system produced more power than was used to make it, but on a large scale, say that of the need of a city sewage works it might be more effecient and produce enough power.

I think that it's better to waste less power than drive around in battery powered cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 21:20 
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kingsize wrote:
It is a fact however, that america consistantly refuses to sign any international agreement to reduce pollution despite being one of the main contributors.


More anti-american bullshit I think.... :x

They did not sign because it is nonsense. Most countries will fail to meet their targets and will be penalised, what ever that means.

In the US they have..

CAFE (Corporate avarage fuel economy) laws....we do not

California emissions legislation is the tightest in the world

They are years ahead in the roll out of bio-fuel

The have more hybrid cars on the road than anyone else in the world.

They are ahead of Europe in the roll out of Hydrogen power.

They are 10 years ahead in the roll-out of LPG powered public service vehicles.

And all that without having to kiss ass on Kyoto. And by the way they are not the only country to think its Kyoto is cobblers.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 21:35 
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Gizmo wrote:
Most countries will fail to meet their targets and will be penalised, what ever that means


It probably means it's give the government an excuss to tax it's people more.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 21:57 
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Dixie wrote:
It probably means it's give the government an excuss to tax it's people more.


Quote:
The Protocol’s compliance system, agreed as part of the Marrakesh Accords, gives “teeth” to its commitments. It consists of a Compliance Committee, composed of a plenary, a bureau, and two branches: a facilitative branch and an enforcement branch. As their names suggest, the facilitative branch aims to provide advice and assistance to Parties, including “early-warning” that a Party may be in danger of not complying, whereas the enforcement branch has the power to apply certain consequences on Parties not meeting their commitments.


And the consequencies...

Quote:
One approach proposes the establishment of an international “compliance fund” to ensure that every country is able to meet its reduction levels by the end of the first commitment period. Given the uncertainty of economic forecasting and the potential unwillingness of countries to engage in last-minute credit sales, the compliance fund would act as a seller of last resort, guaranteeing the availability of accredited tonnes for purchase through 2012. Money raised by the sale of these tons would then be invested in carbon abatement projects worldwide.


And you wonder why America did not sign!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 22:53 
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Gizmo wrote:
More anti-american bullshit I think.... :x

They did not sign because it is nonsense. Most countries will fail to meet their targets and will be penalised, what ever that means.


So I guess it's better not to sign up at all? After all, you can't "fail" to meet your targets if you don't have any so that's OK?!

Gizmo wrote:
In the US they have..

CAFE (Corporate avarage fuel economy) laws....we do not
.


True - we don't really need them in Europe. They were introduced to make the Americans feel a bit better about their appalling average fuel consumption. The idea was that the manufacturers were forced to make some more economical cars and offer them for sale - it didn't really matter that few people bought them - just so long as they could say they had them available for sale. It would be interesting to compare the "CAFE" of an American manufacturer and a similar European one!

Gizmo wrote:
California emissions legislation is the tightest in the world


Yes and no. They are tougher on some pollutants and not on others - also the test cycles are a bit different. Not better, not worse, just different. I don't think a US car that meets Californian emissions requirements will automatically pass the European ones (and vice versa).

Gizmo wrote:
They are years ahead in the roll out of bio-fuel


Don't know about this. Certainly it has been widely available in Germany for a good few years and the Brazilians have had it for a very long time indeed.

Gizmo wrote:
The have more hybrid cars on the road than anyone else in the world.


They have more CARS on the road than anyone else too! What percentage of the National fleet over there is hybrid?

Gizmo wrote:
They are ahead of Europe in the roll out of Hydrogen power.


Again, don't know about this. Do you mean hydrogen fuel cell or hydrogen burned in a spark ignition engine? I think they might lead the world in fuel cell technology although I think Ballard are the current market leaders and they are (I believe) Canadian. As for burning it in a car, I think BMW is pretty much at the forefront of that field. As far as I'm aware, they have the only production car that can run on (i.e. burn) hydrogen at present.


Gizmo wrote:
They are 10 years ahead in the roll-out of LPG powered public service vehicles.


If reducing CO2 is the name of the game, that's not actually a big help! In any case, LPG buses have been around in Europe for a good 10 years.

Gizmo wrote:
And all that without having to kiss ass on Kyoto. And by the way they are not the only country to think its Kyoto is cobblers.


I think the US is far and away the biggest per-capita producer of CO2 in the world. It's a great pity that they aren't devoting more of their massive resources to solving the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if some (maybe most) of the final solutions come from the US though. That's partly what makes it so infuriating for me. They have a wonderful "have-a-go" attitude to research whereas we tend not to invest in anything that might not pay back in the next fortnight. We just go straight for the "sack cloth and ashes" approach rather than trying to engineer our way out of the problem.

I sometimes wonder whether if George and Tony had invested the same amount of money as they've spent on the Iraq war in alternative fuel research, we'd all be driving cars that ran on fresh air by now!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 23:44 
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Mole wrote:
I think the US is far and away the biggest per-capita producer of CO2 in the world.


Not true.They are actualy number 5 just in front of LUXEMBOURG at number 6, funny how they never get a mention.

But hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of a good slagging off.

I suspect if we had a population density one 20th of the current level, a climate which can go from -40 to + 35 degrees we may find our CO2 levels may go up a bit.

But lets just join in on the anti-american eco-feeding frenzy without actualy understanding anything about the facts.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:09 
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OK, fair enough, I should have left out the "per capita" bit. Let's just leave it as "biggest" producer of CO2 in the world, shall we?

I don't buy the "extremes of climate" bit though - a quick look round the world for other countries with extreme climates doesn't seem to bear that one out!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:56 
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How did this get to USA bashing? This Nickel mine is in Canada, which last time I looked was nothing to do with the USA.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 14:13 
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Mole wrote:
I think the US is far and away the biggest per-capita producer of CO2 in the world. It's a great pity that they aren't devoting more of their massive resources to solving the problem.


There's no good reason to believe that anthropomorphic CO2 production *is* a problem, and certainly no justification to spend massive resources trying to 'solve' it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 16:10 
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I've heard that view many times before on here and I'm not sure whether I agree or not. Certainly, the overwhelming weight of public opinion (in most countries round the world, at least) seems to believe that it IS a problem. Of course, the truth is that I don't know enough about it to make an informed choice myself. I am reluctant to believe the government line because they've spouted so much cr4p about other things (like scameras) in the past. On the other hand, I can't quite bring myself to write it off just because the odd natural phenomenon makes more of the stuff and it suits my lifestyle and love of cars to not believe it!

I'm trying to neatly sidestep it and put a foot in both camps by holding the opinion that regardless of whether it's a problem or not, we need to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels (especially oil) because it is a finite resource that seems to be found in areas where the climate (and / or the inhabitants) aren't kindly disposed towards us! IF that also reduces CO2 (and lots of other nasty) emissions, so much the better!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 17:42 
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More anti-american bullshit I think....


Hardly. As we're about cars: Anyone with any ioata of environmental sense knows about america's problem with gas-guzzlers. The fuel economy of the average new vehicle sold in the United States has been falling since 1987 and is now at its lowest point in twenty years. source


Lets have a look at CAFE shall we? When did CAFE originate?
Existing Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards required for passenger cars stand at about 28 miles per gallon (mpg). The standards were first adopted in 1975 by Congress after the Arab oil embargo. CAFE requirements for popular SUVs and light trucks stand at about 21 mpg.

Bush is only now thinking of revising CAFE, some 21 years later:

Details of the proposal include:
  • No change in the average fuel economy standard for cars, which has been stuck at 27.5 miles-per-gallon for two decades
  • An extension of the loophole which exempts Hummers and other heavy vehicles weighing over 8,500 pounds from meeting any fuel economy standards
  • The creation of six categories for light trucks, allowing the fuel economy of full-size pickups to rise only to 21.3 mpg by 2011 (and the opportunity for auto companies to "game" the system by adding weight to various vehicles)
  • The ability for automakers to limit any efficiency improvements for light trucks to 22.2 mpg in 2007, and 23.5 mpg in 2010
    Regulations to bar states from implementing their own stricter emissions and mileage standards, as California and other states have proposed!!!
  • The creation of new loopholes permitting automakers to get credits for producing vehicles which can, but seldom use alternative fuels
    The proposal was made in Aug., when gas prices increased to historically high levels.

European cars are on average nearly [url=http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11/average_fuel_co.html]TWICE as efficient.
[/url]
Just because the US has Laws about something doesn't make it better now does it? California - well done, one state. Lets see the rest follow suit with the legislation. In fact Calfornia's Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006 effectively puts itself inline with the Kyoto initiative!source

Gizmo, you are sadly very mis-informed. As you mentioned california, here's what they have to say about their homeland.

And a google search "america +kyoto" first result:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html

It goes on and on and on...

To those that don't believe that we have a global warming crisis, have a look at the C02 vs golbal temperature curve.

"The US pollutes more, absolutely and per head, than any other country".


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 18:30 
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kingsize wrote:
To those that don't believe that we have a global warming crisis, have a look at the C02 vs golbal temperature curve.

funny how they ignore that inconvenient spike in 1940.

Correlation IS NOT causation

otherwise this would be also be a valid theory
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 18:36 
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This was an interesting write up in the Daily Telegraph Climate chaos? Don't believe it

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