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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 23:33 
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Gizmo wrote:
Dixie wrote:
Aren't they going to stop making incandescent lamps and stop anyone selling them UK?


Thank goodness for e-bay..... :lol:

Most of the stuff I buy from there seems to come from abroad anyhow.

If not there is always car boot sales/sunday markets.

Anyhow there will be plenty or warning of the change so you will get chance to stock up.


I think I will be joining you! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 00:25 
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Dixie wrote:
Homer wrote:
Quote:
Eco-bulbs are due to become compulsory in British homes within four years.


Not in my house they aren't. :idea:

Or are we going to have lightbulb police?


Aren't they going to stop making incandescent lamps and stop anyone selling them UK?


As long as they aren't going to inspect the contents of my loft I'll be fine for a few decades at least. :idea:

I already use a few "energy saving" bulbs, where they are convenient. i.e. where they are left on for long periods.

Anyway, does anyone have any figures on the true energy cost including production and (safe) disposal of each type?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 00:43 
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Daily Mail

Dimwits: Why 'green' lightbulbs aren't the answer to global warming
by CHRISTOPHER BOOKER



They have to be left on all the time, they're made from banned toxins and they won't work in half your household fittings. Yet Europe (and Gordon Brown) says 'green' lightbulbs must replace all our old ones.


Every day now we are being deluged with news of the latest proposals from our politicians about how to save the planet from global warming. We must have 'a new world order' to combat climate change, Gordon Brown proclaimed yesterday. We must have strict 'green' limits on air travel, proposes David Cameron, so that no one can afford to take more than one flight a year.


A fifth of all our energy must be 'green' by 2020, says the EU, even though there is no chance of such an absurd target being met. We must have 'green' homes, 'green' cars, 'green' fuel, even microchips in our rubbish bins to enforce 'green' waste disposal.


Have these politicians any longer got the faintest idea what they are talking about? Do they actually look at the hard, practical facts before they rush to compete with each other in this mad musical-chairs of gesture politics?


Take just one instance of this hysteria now sweeping our political class off its feet: that which was bannered across the Daily Mail's front page on Saturday in the headline 'EU switches off our old lightbulbs'.


This was the news that, as part of its latest package of planet-saving measures, the EU plans, within two years, to ban the sale of those traditional incandescent lightbulbs we all take for granted in our homes. Gordon Brown followed suit yesterday, saying he wanted them phased out in Britain by 2011.


No doubt the heads of government who took this decision (following the lead of Fidel Castro's dictatorship in Cuba) purred with selfcongratulation at striking such a daring blow against global warming.


After all, these 'compact fluorescent bulbs' (or CFLs), to which they want us all to switch, use supposedly only a fifth of the energy needed by the familiar tungsten-filament bulbs now to be made illegal.


Among the first to congratulate the EU's leaders was UK Green MEP Caroline Lucas, who claimed that 'banning old-fashioned lightbulbs across the EU would cut carbon emissions by around 20 million tonnes per year and save between e5 million and e8million per year in domestic fuel bills'.


Who could argue? Certainly one lot of people far from impressed by the EU's decision are all those electrical engineers who have been clutching their heads in disbelief. Did those politicians, they wondered, actually take any expert advice before indulging in this latest planet- saving gesture?


In fact, the virtues of these 'low-energy' bulbs are nothing like so wonderful as naive enthusiasts like Ms Lucas imagine them to be. Indeed in many ways, the experts warn, by banning incandescent bulbs altogether, the EU may have committed itself to an appallingly costly blunder.


It is a decision that will have a far greater impact on all our lives than most people are yet aware, presenting the UK alone with a bill which, on our Government's own figures, could be £3 billion or more.


The result will provide a quality of lighting which in many ways will be markedly less efficient. Even Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor who put forward the proposal, admitted that, because the energy-saving bulbs she uses in her flat take some time to warm up, she often has 'a bit of a problem' when she is looking for something she has 'dropped on the carpet'.


But even more significantly, because they must be kept on so much longer to run efficiently, the actual amount of energy saved by these bulbs has been vastly exaggerated.


So what are the disadvantages of CFLs over the traditional bulbs we will no longer be allowed to buy? Quite apart from the fact that the CFLs are larger, much heavier and mostly much uglier than familiar bulbs - and up to 20 times more expensive - the vast majority of them give off a harsher, less pleasant light.


Because they do not produce light in a steady stream, like an incandescent bulb, but flicker 50 times a second, some who use them for reading eventually find their eyes beginning to swim - and they can make fast-moving machine parts look stationary, posing a serious safety problem.


Fluorescent CFLs cannot be used with dimmer switches or electronically-triggered security lights, so these will become a thing of the past. They cannot be used in microwaves, ovens or freezers, because these are either too hot or too cold for them to function (at any temperature above 60C degrees or lower than -20C they don't work),


More seriously, because CFLs need much more ventilation than a standard bulb, they cannot be used in any enclosed light fitting which is not open at both bottom and top - the implications of which for homeowners are horrendous.


Astonishingly, according to a report on 'energy scenarios in the domestic lighting sector', carried out last year for Defra by its Market Transformation Programme, 'less than 50 per cent of the fittings installed in UK homes can currently take CFLs'. In other words, on the Government's own figures, the owners of Britain's 24 million homes will have to replace hundreds of millions of light fittings, at a cost upwards of £3billion.


In addition to this, lowenergy bulbs are much more complex to make than standard bulbs, requiring up to ten times as much energy to manufacture. Unlike standard bulbs, they use toxic materials, including mercury vapour, which the EU itself last year banned from landfill sites - which means that recycling the bulbs will itself create an enormously expensive problem.


Perhaps most significantly of all, however, to run CFLs economically they must be kept on more or less continuously. The more they are turned on and off, the shorter becomes their life, creating a fundamental paradox, as is explained by an Australian electrical expert Rod Elliott (whose Elliott Sound Products website provides as good a technical analysis of the disadvantages of CFLs as any on the internet).


If people continue switching their lights on and off when needed, as Mr Elliott puts it, they will find that their 'green' bulbs have a much shorter life than promised, thus triggering a consumer backlash from those who think they have been fooled.


But if they keep their lights on all the time to maximise their life, CFLs can end up using almost as much electricity from power stations (creating CO2 emissions) as incandescent bulbs - thus cancelling out their one supposed advantage.


In other words, in every possible way this looks like a classic example of kneejerk politics, imposed on us not by our elected Parliament after full consultation and debate, but simply on the whim of 27 politicians sitting around that table in Brussels, not one of whom could have made an informed speech about the pluses and minuses of what they were proposing.


Even if it does have the effect of reducing CO2 emissions, those reductions will be utterly insignificant when compared with emissions from China, for example, which is growing so fast it is using half the world's cement, 30 per cent of the world's coal, one quarter of copper production and 35 per cent of steel.


There was not a hint of democracy in this crackpot decision, which will have a major impact on all our lives, costing many of us thousands of pounds and our economy billions - all to achieve little useful purpose, while making our homes considerably less pleasant to live in.


Such is the price we are now beginning to pay for the ' ecomadness' which is sweeping through our political class like a psychic epidemic. The great 'Euro-bulb blunder' is arguably the starkest symbol to date of the crazy new world into which this is leading us.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 00:48 
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Quote:
They have to be left on all the time


This is a bit of Bookereese. You do not have to leave them on all the time. And the warm-up time is not THAT long. We use halogens and low energy bulbs. I use one in my study. It's not as bright as the old light bulbs, true, but it does save us energy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 00:52 
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Dusty wrote:

Gaslight with gas mantles actually provides a really rather nice light. Not only that, but in my "period" home (18thC, maybe older) it looks rather more appropriate than flourescent tubes!

Not sure it would cost any more than electricity either! (Mantles are pretty good at turning heat into light, and the heat isnt a waste anyway! Hey! Home heating with free lighting! Isnt that called CHP?? :) )

I have a Carbide lamp, which uses Calcium Carbide and water to make Acetylene Gas.
It's bright and if you have a block of lime, can be made even brighter.
Niffs a bit though when you switch it off!

In France, they still use paraffin heaters - not the old fashioned ones some of you might remember, but modern electronic ignition and priming - no pumping!
Not only that, but they use a perfumed paraffin which makes your home smell nice!
They do keep Hurricane lamps and "Tilley" lights too - but maybe that's because the electric goes to the outside of the home over head via a pole, and is vulnerable in bad weather!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 01:14 
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CFL reliability and performance.doc


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 02:11 
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jomukuk wrote:


There's an error on the link.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 20:33 
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That's often the way when people start connecting. Fortunately, I saved the file on pc.It is available for d/load on:
File-Saved

It is something I experience a lot on .gov.uk sites.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 22:27 
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sort of related issue here

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/register/20080 ... 6f9_1.html

Domestic "microwind" turbines, recently championed as "power from the people" by opposition leader David Cameron, are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

(Advertisement)
A study of domestic turbines was published by renewable energy consultants Encraft in December. According to the study, only one of the 15 household wind turbines generated enough to power a 75W light bulb. The average daily output was 393.3W: an average of 17W per hour.

In all, only three of the turbines generated over 400W of electricity, with one generating 1,790W per day.

Four of the turbines didn't even make it into three figures. By way of comparison, a washing machine consumes 4KW/hr (4,000W), and a fridge-freezer 1.9KW. [PDF,1MB]

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 02:34 
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nigel_bytes wrote:
sort of related issue here

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/register/20080 ... 6f9_1.html

Domestic "microwind" turbines, recently championed as "power from the people" by opposition leader David Cameron, are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

(Advertisement)
A study of domestic turbines was published by renewable energy consultants Encraft in December. According to the study, only one of the 15 household wind turbines generated enough to power a 75W light bulb. The average daily output was 393.3W: an average of 17W per hour.

In all, only three of the turbines generated over 400W of electricity, with one generating 1,790W per day.

Four of the turbines didn't even make it into three figures. By way of comparison, a washing machine consumes 4KW/hr (4,000W), and a fridge-freezer 1.9KW. [PDF,1MB]


However, I was speaking to a chap on a canal boat who had a small wind turbine. It provided him with enough juice to run his lights and to charge his laptop. He also had a rather beefy and useful solar panel unit that, even in the winter, provided enough power to run his lights and his computer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:17 
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Have you notcied that because of the demand/hype over wind turbines the model sold in B&Q has gone up £200+

Thats another 20 years to pay back the costs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 01:11 
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Thatsnews wrote:
it does save us energy.


It saves you energy, but if it costs 10 times the energy to manufacture, and 20 times the energy to transport (rough estimate) then is it doing anything on a global scale?

Just as well there is no man made global warming with crack-pot ideas like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:17 
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nigel_bytes wrote:
sort of related issue here

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/register/20080 ... 6f9_1.html

Domestic "microwind" turbines, recently championed as "power from the people" by opposition leader David Cameron, are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

(Advertisement)
A study of domestic turbines was published by renewable energy consultants Encraft in December. According to the study, only one of the 15 household wind turbines generated enough to power a 75W light bulb. The average daily output was 393.3W: an average of 17W per hour.

In all, only three of the turbines generated over 400W of electricity, with one generating 1,790W per day.

Four of the turbines didn't even make it into three figures. By way of comparison, a washing machine consumes 4KW/hr (4,000W), and a fridge-freezer 1.9KW. [PDF,1MB]


The units in this calculation are wrong: they are using watts as if they were units of energy. You can't have W/hour unless you are measuring an obscure rate of change. They might mean Wh but it's hard to tell.

If the average daily output is 393W then the average power is a constant 393W: there is no need to divide by 24 hours. Whether 393W is the correct value sounds dubious, however.


Last edited by Zamzara on Wed Jan 09, 2008 13:45, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:45 
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Homer wrote:
Thatsnews wrote:
it does save us energy.


It saves you energy, but if it costs 10 times the energy to manufacture, and 20 times the energy to transport (rough estimate) then is it doing anything on a global scale?

Just as well there is no man made global warming with crack-pot ideas like this.


Then what would be the problem? :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 02:22 
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Hi Jomukuk, I agree and disagree 50% ish with what you say but with regard to Cuba,and Venezuala, for example, I disagree. You have to remember that these Countries have been under a USA embargo on international trade for many years just because they had the nerve to elect a "left wing" Government and have OIL reserves. That of course, opposses the USA view of how things should be. They prefer a right wing payed South American neo-fascist dictator with a private army who will do their bidding and supply them with cheap oil at the cost to their own people. Naturally, their own people don't like this.....How would YOU feel?

Starved of International trade since the 1950's when Castro took the Mafia run US brothels away from them, the Cubans are now "FORCED" to look for economy" wherever they can find it........ ..using less power domestiacally is just one. So be careful whom you blame for what..
Can you believe that the ALL POWERFUL GLOBAL USA has a NEED to starve a tiny island like this?....Ask your self WHY?

jomukuk wrote:
No doubt the heads of government who took this decision (following the lead of Fidel Castro's dictatorship in Cuba) purred with self congratulation at striking such a daring blow against global warming.


With me, you where doing fine until you made this quote, I still think that we agree on many things Jomukuk, I'd love to have a good old arguement over a pint!

:)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 23:43 
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I didn't write that !
Unoriginal thinker are my two middle names !
So, how about this


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 05:05 
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Ah!..........Well he's a Pratt anyway.....

Flourescent tubes (which is what these are) have contained mercury for years! Nothing new there then!...............

Smash one of those and you'll release far more toxins than a "low energy" lamp. Nothing said about those though!.......

Fechin' journalists!................. :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 
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Quote:
Flourescent tubes (which is what these are) have contained mercury for years! Nothing new there then!...............

Smash one of those and you'll release far more toxins than a "low energy" lamp. Nothing said about those though!.......


True, But flourescent tubes aren't commonly used in the domestic enviroment.

(Some households have them in the kitchen, but it is rare indeed to see them anywhere else in private homes)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:35 
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Also, while legal, fluorescent tubes are not compulsory which is what the Government are seeking to impose with their new legislation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 18:47 
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http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4281/


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