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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 01:40 
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This fiasco will further alienate an angry public

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I hate to say I told you so, but I have predicted the failure of the Copenhagen summit to agree to binding commitments for over a year.

The Copenhagen fiasco was not just foreseeable, it was inevitable. The inability of the international community to break the climate deadlock reflects the incompatible national interests and demands that divide the west and the rest. This is now a permanent feature in what is likely to become an indefinite moratorium on international climate law-making.

In light of the Copenhagen non-agreement, there will be increased pressure by EU members states to water down unilateral emissions targets that are conditional on an international treaty. Just like Japan, it will be impossible for Europe or, indeed, the UK to continue with policies that are burdening national economies with huge costs and damaging their international competitiveness.

Climate politics face a profound crisis. Revolts among eastern European countries, in Australia and even among Obama's Blue Dog Democrats are forcing law-makers to renounce support for unilateral climate policies. In the UK, the party-political consensus on climate change is unlikely to survive the general elections as both Labour and the Tories are confronted by a growing public backlash against green taxes and rising fuel bills.

However, the biggest losers of the Copenhagen fiasco appear to be climate science and the scientific establishment who, with a very few distinguished exceptions, have promoted unmitigated climate alarm and hysteria.It confirms beyond doubt that most governments have lost trust in the advice given by climate alarmists and the IPCC. The Copenhagen accord symbolises the loss of political power by Europe whose climate policies have been rendered obsolete.

It is a remarkable irony of history that when the leading voices of the radical environmental movements of the 1960s and 70s occupy governmental power in most western nations, their political and international influence is on the wane. The weakening of global warming anxiety among the general public and the marked decline of western influence and authority on the international stage is a clear manifestation of the green slump.

Excellent stuff - and in a pro-AGW newspaper too :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 09:50 
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PeterE wrote:
This fiasco will further alienate an angry public

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I hate to say I told you so, but I have predicted the failure of the Copenhagen summit to agree to binding commitments for over a year.

The Copenhagen fiasco was not just foreseeable, it was inevitable. The inability of the international community to break the climate deadlock reflects the incompatible national interests and demands that divide the west and the rest. This is now a permanent feature in what is likely to become an indefinite moratorium on international climate law-making.

In light of the Copenhagen non-agreement, there will be increased pressure by EU members states to water down unilateral emissions targets that are conditional on an international treaty. Just like Japan, it will be impossible for Europe or, indeed, the UK to continue with policies that are burdening national economies with huge costs and damaging their international competitiveness.

Climate politics face a profound crisis. Revolts among eastern European countries, in Australia and even among Obama's Blue Dog Democrats are forcing law-makers to renounce support for unilateral climate policies. In the UK, the party-political consensus on climate change is unlikely to survive the general elections as both Labour and the Tories are confronted by a growing public backlash against green taxes and rising fuel bills.

However, the biggest losers of the Copenhagen fiasco appear to be climate science and the scientific establishment who, with a very few distinguished exceptions, have promoted unmitigated climate alarm and hysteria.It confirms beyond doubt that most governments have lost trust in the advice given by climate alarmists and the IPCC. The Copenhagen accord symbolises the loss of political power by Europe whose climate policies have been rendered obsolete.

It is a remarkable irony of history that when the leading voices of the radical environmental movements of the 1960s and 70s occupy governmental power in most western nations, their political and international influence is on the wane. The weakening of global warming anxiety among the general public and the marked decline of western influence and authority on the international stage is a clear manifestation of the green slump.

Excellent stuff - and in a pro-AGW newspaper too :D


And to quote one of the comments

Quote:
Just to provide a bit of context to these remarks, Benny Peiser is a former member of the Scientific Alliance, an organisation which was financially backed by the director of the British Aggregates Association - which defends the interests of the quarrying industry - who was "totally fed up with all this environmental stuff". It has strong links with ExxonMobil front-groups, and was co-founded by a PR firm.

A thoroughly independent voice, in other words ...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:14 
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Please show me an "independent" person concerned in any of the [very] vitriolic arguments.
There are too many lies touted as truths now for anyone to say who is telling the truth.
And since there in no such anymore as an independent scientist, I do not think we will ever get to the real truth.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:03 
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I imagine the residents of the Eastern states of the USA are very convinced by the global warming arguments at the moment. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 14:04 
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It's not global warning, it's climate change.
the bad weather in various parts of the world is symptomatic of long-term-climate-change attributable to home-sapiens generated emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere.
The problem being that there is no way for CO2 to act that way. UNLESS you postulate an "unknown forcing mechanism" that is responsible (which still leaves the problem of how CO2 acts to increase global temperature in a scientific way)
Another problem is explaining how the 5% that HS puts into the atmosphere actually manages to do the evil deed.
But, good little climate alarmists don't let the science get in the way of social good.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 15:18 
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Temperature data issues known about as far back as 1980 apparently.

Ignored by Monsieur Trenberth ( a member of the CRU Cabal).

Another wheel comes off- the data is fraudulent.

http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_bri ... -data.html

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 15:51 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The answer to your question is that, like so many climate change sceptics, you are confusing climate and weather. Climate is a long term trend. Weather is fluctuations in that trend.

So what? The swing of the fluctuations are as big as the swing in (claimed) trend.
Unlike the long-term trend, the 'fluctuations' keep on occurring and repeating, so by now we should have enough data to be able to correlate with events such that we can produce a short-term trend (the only thing that passes as noise/fluctuations is what we do not have the ability to understand).

If anything, given the amount of data available for so many of these short-term events, and the fact that data need only be local, what you describe as 'fluctuations' should be easier to predict than the long-term climate.

I've been keeping a close eye on the MET forecasts for my area recently, for Heathrow (you would think they would try to get forecasts for that area correct). The short term forecasts are presented as three hour chunks. On Friday it kept on predicting snow for the next three hour chunk and kept on doing so for a whole 12 hours - not a frigging flake, or even rain, not even later on. (that pi55ed me off because I had to maintain a timelapse setup on permanent standby)

Yesterday evening they forecast heavy snow (XX's as well) throughout Monday, now it is saying sunny sky (not even cloud during the day) and no form of precipitation at all, not even later on.

:roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 16:01 
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Indeed the fluctuations are much larger than the slow change in the baseline which is why it is difficult to extract that baseline from the data in a way that is compelling to people without scientific training. Weather forecasting, even in the short term, is difficult because the weather system is chaotic (in the technical sense)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 16:22 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Indeed the fluctuations are much larger than the slow change in the baseline ...

The larger swings should be easier to work with then, no?

dcbwhaley wrote:
... which is why it is difficult to extract that baseline from the data in a way that is compelling to people without scientific training.

Aren't the MET trained in weather forecasting?
How does that logically follow from the earlier part of your statement?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Weather forecasting, even in the short term, is difficult because the weather system is chaotic (in the technical sense)

The climate system is also chaotic, but on a time-frame we do not have direct data for; so what?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 18:38 
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Quote:
which is why it is difficult to extract that baseline from the data in a way that is compelling to people without scientific training.


Hmmn

Where have I heard that story before??

Oh yes, that was it.

The one about the empirors new clothes that were made of a wonderfull new material that only stupid people couldnt see!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 18:40 
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From Bad: To worse.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog.html?b=fullcomment&e=lawrence-solomon-wikipedia-s-climate-doctor&s=Opinion

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 19:14 
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Nice article in the telegraph,
No one in the world exercised more influence on the events leading up to the Copenhagen conference on global warming than Dr Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and mastermind of its latest report in 2007.

Although Dr Pachauri is often presented as a scientist (he was even once described by the BBC as “the world’s top climate scientist”), as a former railway engineer with a PhD in economics he has no qualifications in climate science at all. :lol:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6847227 ... hauri.html

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 22:57 
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He may well have no science in climate, or any related field.
But he is admirably qualified to lead the UN climate change body.
Which, after all, is more about money than anything else.
He does have a degree in economics: So he will be able to follow the money trail (if not define the direction it is heading in)

You will all remember (I hope) in years to come that I said the only way to control population was to put a cap on age...not to put a halt to births ?
Keep it in mind in the years to come, as the focus on over-population slowly shifts....and if you think that population has little to do with climate change.....think again.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 23:25 
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jomukuk wrote:
You will all remember (I hope) in years to come that I said the only way to control population was to put a cap on age...not to put a halt to births ?


I will. Just as I will remember that, in 1957 - 8 months before the launch of Sputnik 1, former Astronomer Royal Dr. Richard van der Riet Wooley called the idea of space travel "utter bilge."

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 23:39 
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Hmmm...

I suppose at the time he was considered to be an expert on his subject; just like the experts who believe that climate change is man made.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 01:03 
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malcolmw wrote:
Hmmm...

; just like the experts who believe that climate change is man made.

Or money( or shouLd that be TAX) LED .

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 02:36 
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PeterE wrote:


Steve wrote:
Maybe the propaganda pushing the pro-arguments are more emotive (than scientific) and hence appealing to women? (just look at those TV adverts)


After reading the article above I have been giving this matter some serious thought.

It is my anecdotal experience that women are far more likely to be members of the compassionate/emotional side to any debate. Overwhelmingly I know more female vegetarians/vegans/environmentalists/do-gooders/hippies. So I would suggest that the question to be answered is not "why is there a higher proportion of men in the AGW doubting camp?" but instead "why are there fewer women?".

I'm glad to see the wheels coming off this horrible greed-driven manifestation of cum hoc ergo propter hoc at last, and not a moment too soon; I hope sense is universally achieved before we are bound to crippling economic commitments. How people can take thousands of years of temperature data, with massive fluctuations, and look at a small section around the present day, which is not remaining constant, and surmise that it is down to our presence is beyond me! It shows arrogance of a Cnutian proportion to believe that we could either cause, or reverse, natural changes in global trends.

Perhaps the decrease in global volcanic activity in modern times is due to fewer virgins being sacrificed in volcanoes. Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 07:55 
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malcolmw wrote:
Hmmm...

I suppose at the time he was considered to be an expert on his subject; just like the experts who believe that climate change is man made.


I think that you have that the wrong way round. He was one of a few men denying what the vast consensus of scientists and engineers knew to be true. Now why does that seem seem familiar in the AGW debate.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 08:05 
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How people can take thousands of years of temperature data, with massive fluctuations, and look at a small section around the present day, which is not remaining constant, and surmise that it is down to our presence is beyond me!


Your inability to comprehend an hypothesis does not make it untrue. Nor will the failure of the of the Copenhagen conference mike global warming stop. It still goes round"

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 09:49 
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"I am arguing that we can't measure feedbacks the way people have been trying to do it," he said. "The climate modelers see from satellite data that warm years have fewer clouds, then assume that the warmth caused the clouds to dissipate. If this is true, it would be positive feedback and could lead to strong global warming. This is the way their models are programmed to behave.

"My question to them was, 'How do you know it wasn't fewer clouds that caused the warm years, rather than the other way around?' It turns out they didn't know. They couldn't answer that question."


Quote:
"We haven't figured out a good way to separate cause and effect, so we can't measure cloud feedback directly. And if we don't know what the feedbacks are, we are just guessing at how much impact humans will have on climate change.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091218122631.htm

The "unknown forcing effect".
Another assumption.
Remove THAT assumption and the 5% of the CO2 that society puts into the atmosphere cannot be causing any warming.
And the assumption that ANY warming is attributable to CO2 is hard to account for using hard physical science. If not impossible.
But do not let the lack of science put you off depopulating the world by 50% in 100 years.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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