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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 21:29 
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This Evenings Programme was talking about the proposed Government Pay as you go driving charges. I caught the last 20 minutes or so.
They had 3 situations -

1)A Woman who lived in the Country & used her car for short journeys.
2)A Family who went away at weekends With a caravan twice a month
3)A Commuter who has to travel at peak times.


1) She was concerned about all the traffic coming off the main roads through the rural areas, then perhaps pushing those costs up. The charging didn't affect her too much. :wink:

2) The Family went away with their caravan to see how much it would cost to have to pay for their Holiday Journey. They were surprised, they had some money left over. :roll:

3)Mr.Commuter. His journey normally takes 45 minutes By car. He tried Public Transport. First On the train, £15.00 return fare each day, usually £60.00 per week in fuel! Plus Bus fare. He got to work 40 minutes late :x The journey home he wouldn't get home til at least 9.45pm :o Whichever way he done he would be worst off. The least he would be paying more a year was £3,000.

I think that was something like it! Did anyone else see it and did I miss something out? :D

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 00:16 
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I saw pretty much all of it between trips to the kitchen to sort dinner out (how domesticated am I 8-) ).

As you said 1) won't get affected much, but probably slightly better off. 2) very likely to be better off if they travel after the rush hour (as if no one would have guessed :roll: ), but WTH was the point of only doing the calculations for a small part of their motoring? Are we supposed to believe that the only mileage the car does is to tow the caravan, which naturally doesn't do their fuel economy any favours. So they may be better off on the caravan trips by a two or three hundred quid, but depending on where they work and shop that saving could easily get eaten up, and some. 3) was the shocker, since he was the sort of bloke mant can identify with. He's got the rush hour commute to deal with like most people, and he doesn't have much choice about what time he goes to work. They worked out his annual motoring costs as a little over £3000. Best case (ie fuel duty scrapped entirely) he was about two grand a year worse off, middle case (fuel duty halved) slightly over £3000 worse off, and worst case (road charging and fuel duty at current levels) his cost would more than double to over £7000 making him 4 grand worse off.

Talking heads were mildly amusing. Alastair Darling was on telling the journo bloke how wonderful it would be without actually answering many questions. Bloke from Trainspot 2000 was on with the usual stuff about traffic expanding to fill the available roadspace, though he did echo the point about drivers diverting onto cheaper roads which might be less able to cope safely with the traffic. Quentin Wilson was on, and to be honest was rather disappointing. Although he did defend car use and pointed out some of the reasons why we choose cars over public transport so often, he also made the sort of "the problem's not going away, something must be done, we can't all continue to use our cars" noises I expected from the T2K guy. :shock: Cheers Quentin. :roll: Still, he did say that public transport simply isn't an attaractive alternative and needs to be sorted out before attacking drivers.

No one as far as I saw brought up some key points about congestion. Firstly that congestion will not increase indefinitely unless we learn how to drive two cars simultaneously in the future. Next, that congestion can sometimes be down to stupid policies and bad design. And the biggie that wasn't mentioned, that congestion can be its own regulator because people choose other routes anyway when the jams get too bad. With no mention, let alone discussion, of these the show was little more than an interesting numbers exercise to see how much more (or less) a few people might be under per mile charging using some assumptions and hypothetical numbers that no one in power has yet committed to.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 00:30 
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In reality we just end up with 24/7 peak as firms re-jig working hours to cope with the logistics. :roll:

Consumer will pay in higher prices for goods and services. Non starter really. Wildy :neko: and self hit road a different times anyway and in opposite directions and we are long way from publc transport here as well - arguably in the cheapest charged roads - but these are busy in the high seasoon and area in 365 day tourist area in reality..

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 08:00 
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Mad Moggie wrote:
In reality we just end up with 24/7 peak as firms re-jig working hours to cope with the logistics.

And the mechanism for setting charges would inevitably be slow to catch up with changes in travel patterns, so people and firms would constantly be chasing the next loophole before it was filled in.

Mad Moggie wrote:
Consumer will pay in higher prices for goods and services. Non starter really. Wildy :neko: and self hit road a different times anyway and in opposite directions and we are long way from publc transport here as well - arguably in the cheapest charged roads - but these are busy in the high seasoon and area in 365 day tourist area in reality..

There would probably be a lot of pressure for high charges in your area - especially at weekends and in Summer - to deter people from bringing their cars into the National Park - but that would really stuff those who actually live there.

See my website article Is the Price Right?.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 13:46 
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I saw it and while there was a good mention of the fact rural roads may see a big impact in the area, the rest of the programme was pretty poor. For a start the people weren't that typical in my opinion. Although many people will identify with the guy in Southport his commute was very long, much longer then the vast majority of people. And I agree about the caravaners - are we seriously meant to believe that the car never gets used during the week? It was also a bit of a pointless exercise - the figures have not been confirmed and could and probably will differ significantly with the ones 'assumed' by the programme.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 08:55 
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My commute takes 45 minutes on a good day to get me to the public car park where we have to put our cars because there is nothing like enough parking spaces for the office. Company provides a shuttle service and pays for parking, but the journey is now in excess of 1 hour each way. up from 40 minutes before the office move. Plenty of people in the office travel much longer times - this might be because they join the company through outsourcing, and then have their office relocated.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 09:28 
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"Motor cars are dangerous", so we're told. "THINK !"

The best thing for the economy is that you PAY to buy one. You PAY to insure it, You PAY to tax it. Then, if you audaciously want to actually use it too, you PAY more as well.

From the treasury, an internal leaked memeo suggests you should be paying all this money to have a car at home which you never actually use (apart from driving it to and from an MoT test centre after they put petrol up to £2,000 a litre) - and then get around on public transport!

Cash, cash , ca$h


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:03 
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So true Paul,

I have paid a fortune (well atleast to me), just like everyone else. Except I live in a semi built up area of London so parking is difficult to come by if I give it up and if I choose to drive the heap into work. Well, it is just silly money. When are they going to sit down and realise that average joe just pays to have the ability to use the car should the need arise.

And public transport. mmmfff ya. What a delight that is. Guess I am stuck on it until my boss decides to give me a nice company spot or some extra dosh to cover the costs of driving in.

hohum.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 20:14 
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Courtesy of Bruv in GMP and apparently reported in couple of tabloids now.


Well I'd have a heck a lot more faith in the satellite technology if they'd get a simple experiment right!

Seems Manchester have piloted a tracking experiment on kiddy fiddlers and tagged them using elecronic tags linked to satellites..


Well - seems they lost track of these individuals as clouds, tall buildings and trees interfered witht he signals :shock: The poor results were leaked when the Home Secretary decided to extend for further 56 months to "improve results" :shock:

Seems Manchester tagged 120 (at any one time) sex offenders, wife beaters and other prolific offenders in piolt scheme. It seems sky scrapers cause a "canyon effect" and block signals! :shock:

well if this is so - it will do same with car track systems for Pay As You Go :?

It seems also that leaf cover and cloud masks the strenght of the signal. This scheme was based on ankle tag connected to a mobile phone carried by the offender :shock: :? and in theory the tag feeds to a tracking ssytem so tabs can be kept on offender and an alarm sounds if the phone is separated from the tag - and it is supposed to sound if offender is near school, play area, park all the time then :wink: :shock: :? or locate near scene of crime if committed. The report was leaked to the press on July 18 and reached papers the other day. It seems of 178 tagged offenders to date - 83 re-offended and ended back behind bars, 66 qre still being tracked and 29 managed to stay out of trouble.

Hmm.. success? and does this give faith in future plans for car drivers?

:shock: :? :shock: :? er .. not really....

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 22:13 
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Ermmmmmmmmmmmmm NO IG, it gives me absolutely no confidence at all.
I would suggest to TPTB that if they can't get the present low grade computer systems right, like the CSA, Air Traffic control, C&E, Courts, then what in Gods name makes them think they will get this system anywhere near right.
And in the above list has to be included the DVLA system, that has been running for so many years and still isn't right. I'm sure that IG can confirm that one.

How many ways are there to say "INCOMPETENT", don't have a Rogets to hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 22:28 
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The big problem is that large systems take a whole whack of man-hours to develop.The tender normally goes to one of the lowest bidders, and so the job is pushed through in too little time with too few resources, with the result that it's implemented long before adequate testing and debugging has been done.
And then they wonder why the whole thing falls apart.

Cheers
Peter

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:20 
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Pete317 wrote:
The big problem is that large systems take a whole whack of man-hours to develop.The tender normally goes to one of the lowest bidders, and so the job is pushed through in too little time with too few resources, with the result that it's implemented long before adequate testing and debugging has been done.
And then they wonder why the whole thing falls apart.

Cheers
Peter


I sincerely hope the wretched scheme does fall apart, but in the meantime a considerable amount of our money will have been wasted on it. That, in itself, is infuriating enough.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 09:34 
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Wouldn't it be good if those that take the decisions to approve these projects took personal responsibility for the decision. Those in government and high level public service positions so often demonstrate total incompetence at anything other than playing POLITICS, and as anybody in the Private sector knows, the one thing that destroys a company is politics being more important than business.

For example if you come up with a stupid idea, or even a good idea and totally :censored: up the implementation (like the latest fiasco: Job Centre Plus and CMS2) then as the responsible person you should loose both your job and associated pension. We also have to move away from the lowest bidder wins scenario, because in so many cases, especially where public money is being spent, lowest bidder means that everyone looses.


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