Safe Speed Forums

In this one particular instance maybe but overall I don't think it would because motorist frustration would cause even more accidents - including the deliberately sideswiping of the cyclists - and yes, this has happened on at least 2 occassions that I'm aware of on our clubrun.


do you carry passengers in your car or do you and your other half/friends always travel in separate vehicles?

Can we step back from "blame" please?

Hopefully we're all trying to analyse what the collective causes and effects were, with a view to better understanding how such tragedies might be avoided in future.

From what I've read so far my take is that it was an extremely unlucky set of circumstances, but it still seems clear that if the cyclists had been riding as individuals at "normal" spacing then it seems unlikely that more than one or two would ever have hit the car, and indeed the freedom of manoeuvre of such spacing might have enabled them to miss it altogether.

I don't say that from an "anti-cyclist" stance or anything like that, simply employing the sort of road safety rationale this site is built around.

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well it's official. Busses, trains and planes are all to be banned. Cars are now only allowed to carry the driver and nobody else.

edit: sorry, forgot to include various forms of water-bourne vehicles.

edit again: people need to understand that a cycling bunch works as a single unit.

edited

That's a valid point, and should indeed be held up to balance the increased risk of the peleton approach...

I don't think that's a valid analogy. On the occasions when I follow my partner's car I do so at a sensible gap. If I wanted to get closer I'd get in the same vehicle!

Similarly I do the same when we go out cycling, and if I wanted to sit a foot away I'd buy us a tandem, thus removing the possibility of a collision.

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Belfast Telegraph, January 9

Road safety appeal after cyclists crash tragedy

Road users in Northern Ireland were today urged to take extra care following a horrendous crash in North Wales in which four cyclists died. Twelve members of Rhyl Cycling Club were cycling on icy roads at a notorious accident blackspot yesterday when a car collided with the group. A 14-year old schoolboy and three men were killed. Police said the driver of the car lost control because of ice on the road. There was no indication of excessive speed.

Stephen Melville, from the Road Safety Council in Northern Ireland, said he had been shocked by the crash. "It was devastating and my heart goes out to the family and friends of those who died. It seems as though it was one of those very rare situations, almost a freak accident. 95% of the time an accident is due to human error. The other 5% can be down to such things as extreme weather conditions."

Mr Melville added that road users needed to take every precaution possible during winter. "Listen to local forecasts and be aware of what the weather conditions are. Motorists in particular should be more wary and reduce their speed. We know that driving too fast for the conditions, even though they are within the limit is a big contributory factor in many accidents."

"Cyclists should also be aware of the weather and wear bright and reflective clothing. Visibility is an issue at this time of year, especially in the late afternoon when the light goes quickly."

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

But a peleton isn't a single unit - it is a collection of individuals. As such it prevents a clear opportunity for the individual members to spread out and maintain their own "safe space", as indeed you would if you were out for a leisure cycle and just happened to be cycling along a road at a similar speed to other cyclists.

As I said earlier, the sole justification for merging the cyclists together is tactical - it reduces their wind resistance so they can go faster. As such I see it as a perfectly valid performance v risk decision for a racing team to make, but not for general riding on the public road.

It's like all the members of my motor club deciding to go to London one day and electing to drive down the M6 bumper to bumper to save fuel. We might all have absolute trust in each other not to do anything silly, but if some external influence required unexpected evasive action by one of the members then the odds of a multiple pile-up would be greatly increased.

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camera operator wrote:
i hoped it would not get to the stage where the cyclists got the blame, but alas

Can we step back from "blame" please?

fair enough JT as we all know this is a tragic accident series of events but when people start saying that cyclists should ride single file spaced out etc, yes driving behind groups of cyclists is a pain at times

i am just glad that in this case the driver was not speeding and caused more deaths, but then if he had been speeding he would have been at the corner before the cyclists and just skidded into the other side of the road and no one injured

if the traf pol who requested the road to be gritted had remained at scene

so many if's

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edited

Like with a lot of accidents the contributing factors came together by chance so no amount of speed limit enforcement would have saved lives here... Makes you wonder why they bother, doesn't it...

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Andrew.

edited

Mmmm. You'd need a very small car to do that. A two second gap at 10 mph isn't very big - and the larger the group the longer the line. Better stick with what we have and treat it as a tractor and trailer that can be overtaken in one go when safe to do so.

If you 'get stuck' you 'get stuck'. Tough.

That's the spirit!

edited

I see your point now that you've better explained it Johno. Perhaps you should write a paper to explain how that timed grouping works and make it available to other clubs.

The important point to get over to drivers is that they have no god given right to overtake anything - let alone a group of cyclists, be they in a group, single file or alone. I know that most of you on here, like me, will have taken it upon themselves to get educated about these things. Let's get the message across to drive safely.

edited

This was how I viewed the possible cause of the accident, AND the passage of the car. It's based only on what I can see in the video, AND the reported comments from witnesses.
It calls for the ice to be present ONLY on the tarmac at the junction - and the notes explain why this might be the case.

I do not think any of the participants could have avoided the accident except by their timing along the road.
The cyclists WERE bunched up, which has increased the casualties above that which might have resulted from Johno's "timed grouping".
Personally I thought bunching was to take advantage of slipstreaming, AND force drivers to pass with clearance, rather than "shave" by as has happened to me when riding alone.
However, I have always felt uncomfortable since the time the Portsmouth branch of the Cycle Touring Club went down a hill as a bunch, and the lead cyclist got his wheel into a tramline, and fifteen or so following riders ran over him as he went down.
Since I formed this diagram, there have been reports that the police had requested that the road be gritted. I would agree with those that feel this was a serious oversight - but I do not know the sequence of events for certain, only the coroners court will finally apportion blame.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Overhead photographs of the tragedy (p3 d telegraph) show what appears
to be a cyle path alongside the road. Any local info to clarify/discount this?

There have been some fairly heated exchanges in this thread in the last couple of pages. I'm not surprised. It's an emotional issue, and frankly enough to make anyone angry.

The larger purpose of this forum, and the reason that most folk attend, is to explore ways of reducing road tragedy. Sometimes that means asking difficult questions, and quite right too.

Despite the heat, almost everything I can see here has been posted in the appropriate spirit.

One thing Safe Speed must do is undermine the appalling us and them culture created largely by bad road safety policy. There is no us and them. We're all road users. We're all vulnerable on the road to mistakes made by ourselves and mistakes made by others.

Although it appears to have no answer, we must still pose the question: "What could the cyclists have done to avoid this tragedy?" We have learned that most road crashes could be avoided by ANY of the involved parties. Innocence from blame has a hollow and useless ring to it when people are dead or injured.

So let's not be angry with one another. Let's not allow an 'us and them' culture to exist. Let's make sure that there's light as well as heat, and let's use our skill and intellect to make the roads a safer place for everyone.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don't agree with this diagram at all.

I believe the car span clockwise from above in a secondary skid. The cyclists were the first contact at much higher impact speed than this diagram would allow. Some of the cyclists were hefted over the wall, and I expect that some of the dead were crushed against the wall.

I posted my analysis here: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 1238#61238

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety