Safe Speed Forums

It would be interesting to know how many fixed ANPR cameras there are in each UK county. A FOI request to the DfT?

I believe they are placed near ports. airports too, or on every motorway bridge/gantery.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

The following recent Pistonheads thread has discussion of some of the ANPR issues:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 7&f=10&h=0 (requires free registration)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That is exactly what I am saying is not sinister! Reviewing all available evidence for the time and place of an incident is no less than I would expect from a diligent investigation; building a profile of individuals' road use is absolutely not.

Can you not see how police reviewing tapes is a million miles removed from detecting and storing the registration of every vehicle passing an installation? The Data Protection Act prescribes that information should not be held for longer than necessary, which storing the movements of vehicles not in the same spatial and temporal area for any prolonged period certainly is!

The police's function is to detect undesirable events that have already occurred and prevent undesirable events that may occur in the future. It is not to detect undesirable events that may occur in the future. Have you seen Minority Report?

...



I'm sure you can think of a few more or perhaps you'd be happy to have your movements for the last 6 months posted on here?

It would be incredibly boring reading. And it would in no way give an indication of where I was going to be on any day in the next 6 months. Knowing that I was in Hemel Hempstead for a day a few months ago - what would anyone do with that information? Even if I was driving a securicor van, what earthly use is knowing that it was there on a certain day be?

I'll ask the question again ...

what could the "wrong hands" do with that infomation, precisely?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Your life might be boring. True

I do not believe that police should get access to vehicle movements without a justified court order, just like phone tapping.

in the wrong hands :
people can deduce commercially confidential information

visits to hospital or rehab

they can workout securicor routes

or press could ambush celebs and sports people

it is a total infringment on our personal lives

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I didn't say my life was boring, I said a list of my movements would be boring. You really need to be accurate if you want to be taken seriously.

OK, to the point in hand. Now you are implying the police are the "wrong hands". That's a whole different perspective.

In the case of a potential unwitting witness to a crime, time is critical, yet a court order may introduce delay?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

ok, it was tounge in cheek

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

How about DVLA/Govt selling that information to marketing bods? Make, Model, Age of your car, when your insurance expires etc., then you'll get bombarded with phone calls/leaflets to try and sell you something...

Apart from the obvious risks that Johnsher has intimated at...

If the DVLA have already broken the DPA then there's no reason why they won't again...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

so you were in Hemel Hemstead were you? And you just happened to be in the same street that we found the "terrorists" in? Do you really think we're stupid enough to believe that story Mr Handy?


"so it seems you've been visiting Ms X. in Hemel Hemstead a lot recently... does Mrs Handy know about this?"

"As a regular visitor to Hemel Hemstead, we thought you'd be interested in this fantastic new offer"

None of that information is from ANPR is it? And it is available from lots of other, non government sources already, e.g.

Make / Model / Age: The manufacturers, the retailer.
Insurance: Confused.com, a host of other online insurance agents, numerous surveys that you or your significant other may have completed.

As for the risks Johnsher has "intimated", what are they? Hence the addition of the word "precisely" as opposed to "vague hints" in the question:

what could the "wrong hands" do with that infomation, precisely?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

1. Again, you are suggesting that law enforcement are the "wrong hands", as though them having access to DVLA data is something new, when you will find it's always been so.

2. Unless Ms X has an ANPR in her driveway, that is not possible. I don't know a Ms X. in Hemel so I can't possibly comment but I'm sure ANPR's aren't quite that widespread.

3. How is this information putting me (assuming I am driving the securicor van, or the nuclear waste, or whatever it was you said was quite so sensitive) at any risk?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

ACPO proposed every 400m , that would give a fairly accurate detail of someones total movements.

400m is a huge area in town, you could be going any where. but if that was showing a visit to the priory in the new forest or a nuclear reactor site it does not leave much to guess work.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

let's see, <tap, tap, tap> list of securicor vans, <tap, tap, tap>, full details of all the routes they take <tap, tap, tap> hmm, here's one that goes to a relatively quiet area every Wednesday at 9am. Thank you, now hand over the cash.

yeah, right, and securicor haven't already spotted that using the same routes over and over again is a risk. Don't you think they may have realised that 40 years ago?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

gosh, is it selective reading day?



Or does Ms X live onthe M1?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

but we're now talking about being able to (easily) analyse all their movements in order to find weak spots.

Perhaps I have a growing demand for stolen Porsches. A few taps would bring up all registered 911s and show me all their movements. A few more taps would show me that Mr Jones drives along a nice quiet road every night at around 1am. Guess where my next carjacking is going to take place?

Right, now we are getting somewhere, a specific risk. Not a nuclear risk, or a n animal rights risk, or a securicor van risk, but an everyday motorist risk.

You don't write for the Daily Mail do you? Trying to make a real risk (no matter how remote) sound like it is worse than it really is is part of their modus operandii.

Ok, we have identified ONE specific risk (but nothing to do with the ones you tried to create earlier in the thread). Now then, lets examine the reality of the <tap> <tap> <tap> bit. A car jacker wants to find out where a 911 is. He could invest in relevant training and hardware and set out to break into a database which is probably 99.95% irrelevant to him, filter out the information he needs, look for trends and identify an opportunity. OR he could walk out his front door (in West London anyway) and follow any one of the multitude of 911's in his own (or a stolen) car. He could choose to follow one driven by a weedy chap rather than the one driven by the guy who looks like he might fight back (they don't capture the "hardness" of the driver on the ANPR database do they?).

Which is more likely to happen? Seriously?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

A few more taps shows that you car entered heathrow and has not left for 3 days...in August.
I recon I have 4 days to rob your house...

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

And a few taps on the current system will tell you where Mr Jones the Porsche owner's quiet road is, where he's asleep every night. But the car is still there.