Safe Speed Forums

funny, that's not what you said about slip roads. In fact you went as far as to argue that people on motorways should slow down to let those on the slip road on.

I've said what the real issue is - and you have even quoted it back at me below. I've emboldened it.



I'll give courtesy to other road users whenever I can sensibly do so. If they demand it as a right I get 'professionally annoyed'.

I also don't think I'm blowing it out of all proportion. What next? Buses don't have to give way? Buses don't have to stop at red lights? Buses get their own traffic lanes? Buses can go around roundabouts the wrong way?

I sincerely believe that the roads are the ultimate 'communist' environment where everyone is equal. Mess with that principle and end up with pigs. Oh look. It's happening. There's a surprise.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

My - what a hornet's nest!

I couldn't be more serious when I say it's VITAL that road users are equal.

Roads priorities are decided on SITUATION where the most important person in the land must give way to the least important if he comes to a give way line.

If we start to create 'super users' with more rights than others, we'll have situations where the priorities are undefined. I expect this already happens when there are conflicts over buses pulling out.

No driver should EVER think he is more important than anyone else.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We start with crystal clear priorities and then co-operate or negotiate for good safe progress.

I object most strongly to the priorities being blurred.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

And so do I and a thousand other drivers...


And if drivers are being deliberately impeded, they're also likely to take risks by overtaking when not safe to do so...


In West Brom, they're built to impede road users.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

so what exactly is unclear about saying "buses have priority when pulling away from stops"?

In principle, that's fair enough. How though do you make it happen in reality? Someone driving a car requires less of a gap to join a major road/negotiate a roundabout/etc. than someone driving a larger vehicle. That same car driver may then be held up in a jam which a biker is able to scythe through with barely any loss in time. Some roads are physically incapable of allowing certain vehicles to pass. A faster car may allow someone to safely/legally overtake and make better progress where a slower car isn't able to do so. Even if we did away with all the artificial restrictions, there are enough unavoidable ones to make for inequalities all across the system.




Wouldn't you class the emergency services as super-users?




True. But in the context of buses (and other large/slow) vehicles trying to (re)join the main traffic flow, some consideration should be given to the problems their drivers face. Whether this ought to be set in stone as part of the HC is debateable-common courtesy ought to be sufficient to make it happen, but there seems to be a shortage of that in the world these days...

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Chris

Oh LOADS!

- At what instant does a bus start to 'pull away from a stop'?

- What is a bus? (OK, mostly it's obvious, but sometimes it might not be.)

- How do you know if it's pulling away from a bus stop? It might just be stopped at the side of the road. Does the same rule apply? How would anyone know? The bus stop may be entirely behind the bus.

- But the biggie is really that moment when priorities are changing. The bus driver may know that he's stuck his indicator on, but passing traffic may not have seen it. The indicator signals INTENTION - so when the signal comes on the bus is not normally yet actually 'pulling out'.

[I had another powerful point, but I've been interrupted by the phone and it's gone, damnit! Still, there will be another one along in a minute ]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

As I wrote above, priority is decided by position/situation. It's a great system.



Absolutely, and that's not an issue that I have ever properly considered in this context. Thanks for bringing it up - I'll have to think that one through properly.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Who is 'they' in this situation? Any bus driver who willy-nilly pulls out in front of traffic forcing them to stop deserves to have their licence taken away from then. The HC rule does not give permission for this, and any driver who thinks it does needs re-training. Nobody is demanding anything here, only in your own mind. The HC simply makes a request that where safe you give assistance to buses to pull out. If everyone routinely ignored this the roads would get more dangerous, not less. Do you think in practical terms a bus is just going to sit there until a large enough gap is created to get upto 30mph? On a busy road this could be a significant amount of time, given that some drivers will speed up in order to close the gap.[/quote]



Now your being daft. Letting buses pull out is entirely sensible, and is safer on the whole. Your only using the old "you can't go reversing priorities" as an excuse to get back at policy you think is wrong. Well the only people your hurting is those on the bus, and the driver. They don't make policy so it seems very spiteful.

The bus driver just wangs on the indicator and pulls out irrespective of wether the driver on the road passing him has seen him or the amount of experience the driver has. The bus driver is making assumptions that the driver is not inexperienced, carrying fragile load, isn’t being tailgated.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

these 3 points are basically the same... and are you really trying to tell us that you have difficulty in determining when a bus (or any vehicle) is attempting to move away from the kerb? Seriously?
If you see a bus indicating INTENTION to pull out are you saying that it's somehow difficult to work out that you should slow down to facilitate that move rather than forcing your way past like the dozen cars in front of you just did (without bothering to look if there was any oncoming traffic)?

Yes. And that's a direct consequence of this inverted priority rule.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No. I'm telling you that there's a grey area while the priority is changing. It CANNOT change in everyone's mind at the same time, therefore it must not change at all.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Any non-anecdotal evidence that this is happening?

Or have most drivers (bus and other) managed to figure out what the HC means with respect to this instruction and sort it out accordingly?

At least you admit it, and for that I have some respect

Any old 'they' - I'm making a point about the principle.



Nah. That was a joke. But I'm deadly serious about 'the thin end of the wedge'.

Perhaps delivery drivers, taxi drivers, milk men and postmen would like the same sort of rule? Should we give it to them? Where do we draw the line? Who would have ANY IDEA where the priority lay?

And I wonder what percentage of the motoring population have read and understood rule 198? Who's going to give priority to who, when the bus driver knows the rule and the passing driver doesn't?

You might say that road safety depends on people knowing all the rules, but actually (thankfully) it doesn't. Almost all the rules fit nicely into a logical framework. This rule does not.



Nah. Whatever I might be, spiteful ain't it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don't suppose so - but I vividly recall the development of the idea. I can't really put years to it accurately, but I reckon 'please let the bus pull out' signs first appeared on buses in London is about 1980. There was an immediate and noticable change in behaviour with hugely increased conflicts over buses pulling out. Bus drivers seemed to think they had the right, while drivers seemed to think they didn't. Before those signs, all I can remember was friendly co-operation.

Then the damn rule appeared in the HC about (wild guess) 1987. According to my observation the conflicts got considerably worse, not better.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well alright, lets stop letting people out of side roads then, and making right turns when we are blocked by traffic ahead. I have priority. I dont wish to reverse this priority in any situation whatsoever. Letting someone out of a junction is going to throw the whole road system into utter chaos.

I will assist anyone who would otherwise have difficulty making the manuovere, where this can be done safely. (Light) delivery drivers, postmen, taxi drivers don't face the same problems because they don't require the same gap to get upto speed, don't stop as often on main roads, and don't have other drivers speeding up to close the gap.



THE RULE DOES NOT ALLOW A BUS TO PULL OUT REGARDLESS. So therefore it's not an issue, the bus driver will wait for a co-operative driver who will assist him/her. [EDIT] If they don't, and force somebody to stop, it is still the bus driver thats in the wrong and I expect them to be dealt with accordingly.

I'm guessing that this is going wrong because of the text mode medium. For the record I'm not annoyed!



No it's your turn to be daft. The priority systems work because we start off from crystal clear and we negotiate from there. It's a brilliant system...



Me too. Like I said, a great system that encourages co-operation.



The rule says GIVE PRIORITY. If it asked bus drivers to 'wait for co-operation' I would have no objection whatsoever.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety