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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 17:01 
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Observer wrote:
I saw the programme and found nothing "compelling" about it except the obvious one-sidedness.


Are you an “independent” observer, as your name implies, or just a car guy? Which way is it with you, Observer?

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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Observer wrote:
I saw the programme and found nothing "compelling" about it except the obvious one-sidedness.


What do you mean by one-sidedness? The programme examined a particular phenomenon and offered plausible explanations for the effects that had been discovered. What other side would you have liked to have seen discussed?


How about photometer records?


But it was those very records, and the varying levels they recorded that led to the disdcovery of the effect in the first place.


No it wasn't. It was dish evaporation rates.

You might find this helpful:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 17:39 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Observer wrote:
I saw the programme and found nothing "compelling" about it except the obvious one-sidedness.


What do you mean by one-sidedness? The programme examined a particular phenomenon and offered plausible explanations for the effects that had been discovered. What other side would you have liked to have seen discussed?


How about photometer records?


But it was those very records, and the varying levels they recorded that led to the disdcovery of the effect in the first place.


No it wasn't. It was dish evaporation rates.

You might find this helpful:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105


No it wasn't, it was lightmeter readings first assessed in Israel.

You might find this helpful

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/program ... rans.shtml

Perhaps there just is no 'other side' many seem so utterly desperate to find. The 'natural cycles' argument is an easy one to deploy because it's almost imposssible to disprove, and if for whatever reason you don't want to believe the global warming theories, then believe this.
But let's suppose the theorists are right, and the timescales for meaningful action are measured in a couple of decades no longer. How long to we continue to provaricate in an effort to stave off actually doing something and altering our comfy lifestyles? Until we get to the point of no return beyond which the evidence becomes..well self evident? That would be a really smart (yet sadly representative of our society) legacy to leave our ancestors wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 17:47 
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basingwerk wrote:
Yes – creating more pressure on oil companies to besmirch environmentalists – even our national treasury profits from oil usage. Are you for pollution curbs, or against them?


I'm very much for pollution curbs, if the pollution you're talking about is the noxious, highly carcinogenic fumes pumped out in large quantities by large diesel engines - the types which power trains, buses and lorries.
But I suspect that the 'pollution' you're talking about is CO2.
C02 is a naturally-occurring, colourless, odourless, non-toxic gas which makes up approx. 0.035% of the earth's atmosphere. It's a gas which is absolutely vital to life on earth, particularly plant life.
By no stretch of the imagination can it be termed a 'pollutant'.

Cheers
Peter


Last edited by Pete317 on Wed May 04, 2005 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 18:00 
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_Tc_ wrote:
There are 7 respected scientists that dispute the theory, compared with roughly 10,000 who argue that it is likely true. Of those 7, at least 4 of them are raking in large consultancy dealings with ExxonMobil, Royal Shell, UNOCAL and Sun Oil, and the leading light in the US has close ties with the Moonies.


Can you quote your sources, please.
Have you looked at the Oregon Petition?

Quote:
Look - you may or not believe this, but sometimes governments do good things.


Like committing the developed countries to an estimated expense of nearly one hundred trillion pounds just for Kyoto?
That'll be over one hundred thousand pounds out of your pocket. And mine. And every other working person in the next 80 years.
And Kyoto is just a sop - it won't make any difference, regardless of what you believe.
It would cost far, far less than that to put in place measures to ensure that we can adapt to whatever climate or other natural disasters come our way.

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 18:20 
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_Tc_ wrote:
Sooner or later, we *are* going to have to give up the internal combustion engine. Hopefully we'll have some kind of replacement by the time we do*...

* - Though it is possible to run a diesel engine off hemp oil.


And sunflower oil, amongst others. And petrol engines can easily be made to run on methanol - another 'sustainable' source of fuel.
So, if the 'problem' is so pressing, why isn't anyone doing something about it? Are oil and car companies just sitting twiddling their thumbs until the oil runs out, at which time they'll have to shut up shop? Where's Gordon Brown going to get the £40 billion a year from once that happens?

And how are people going to power and heat their homes and businesses? Nuclear power? How far is nuclear fusion from becoming a reality? Wind farms? Cover the whole country with windmills to produce just 2.5% of the required power - when the wind's blowing?

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Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 18:23 
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_Tc_ wrote:
Frederick Seitz (primary signator of the Oregon petition) was the chief medical officer for RJ Reynolds Tobacco Company. Hardly the kind of person I'd liek to see wielding control over pollution research.


So that's one you don't trust then. What about the other 18,999?

And all the names on the petition have been validated. The few 'crank' names which appeared on the original petition, such as Gerry Halliwell, have been removed.

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 19:32 
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It's occurred to me that there's an easy solution.

All that's required is for all those who believe in global warming to give up their cars and walk or cycle everywhere, cut off the electricity and gas supplies to their homes, take up manual labour which doesn't use fossil fuels and not buy anything which requires fossil fuel energy in its manufacture or tranport.
And Presto! No more problem.
If the believers aren't prepared to do that, given that they maintain that extreme measures simply have to be taken to avert catastrope, then how can they expect the rest of us to do so?

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 20:47 
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Pete317 wrote:
It's occurred to me that there's an easy solution.

All that's required is for all those who believe in global warming to give up their cars and walk or cycle everywhere, cut off the electricity and gas supplies to their homes, take up manual labour which doesn't use fossil fuels and not buy anything which requires fossil fuel energy in its manufacture or tranport.
And Presto! No more problem.
If the believers aren't prepared to do that, given that they maintain that extreme measures simply have to be taken to avert catastrope, then how can they expect the rest of us to do so?

Cheers
Peter



5 posts one after the other - I take it this is something you would argue to your last breathe then Pete :wink:

And as for your last ahem...solution. Playground logic mate, we're all in this together I'm afraid.
Unfortunately, this is one of those issues that suffers hugely from cynicism, and cynisim is one of the most corrosive attitudes to develop.
Cynicism engeandours single-mindedeness and, to the cycnic, all prophesies become self-fullfillig as, if the cynic distrusts the 'expert' he can safely disbelieve anything the 'expert' says or demonstrates. Thus, the 'expert' will never prove anything to the cycnic who can maintain his/her position come hell or high-water.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 21:01 
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Rigpig,

I will believe true, accredited experts in their field, who are backed up by sound science and who have well-reasoned and researched arguments.
What I will not believe is what self-styled 'experts' have to say, especially when their arguments are based principally on unsound science and even ad hominem attacks, and whose 'findings' are trumped up and grossly exaggerated and misrepresented by politicians and the media.

cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 21:04 
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Rigpig wrote:
if the cynic distrusts the 'expert' he can safely disbelieve anything the 'expert' says or demonstrates..


Depends which "expert" you believe.

Experts said we would be working shorter hours
Experts said fuel would run out by end of the last century
Experts said over population would cause mass starvation in the developed world
Experts said the universe was infinite
Experts said the ozone hole would blite humanity for generations

All that was not that long ago

Expert opinion is only correct at the time of going to press.... :roll:

Some experts are saying global warming is a myth. You are not alowed to hear their point of view. That worries me.. :x

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 21:19 
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Pete317 wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Yes – creating more pressure on oil companies to besmirch environmentalists – even our national treasury profits from oil usage. Are you for pollution curbs, or against them?


I'm very much for pollution curbs, if the pollution you're talking about is the noxious, highly carcinogenic fumes pumped out in large quantities by large diesel engines - the types which power trains, buses and lorries.
But I suspect that the 'pollution' you're talking about is CO2.
C02 is a naturally-occurring, colourless, odourless, non-toxic gas which makes up approx. 0.035% of the earth's atmosphere. ..


Any gas released by industry that has led to harmful changes in the Earth's climate is pollution in most people's books, whatever you may call it!

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 21:57 
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basingwerk wrote:
Any gas released by industry that has led to harmful changes in the Earth's climate is pollution in most people's books, whatever you may call it!


True....but then not EVERYBODY thinks C02 falls into that catagory....there hangs the problem.

Climete change has been happening since the earth was formed. Mass extinction is part of nature. Some people just have a problem thinking in those terms. Everytime we get unseasonal weather the "greens" go into a media frenzy. Proof of global climate change because of Co2.....I don't think so.

Lets face it if MT St Helen or Yellowstone decide to blow their top anything we may or may not have done to the atmosphere will pale into insignificance... :o

there are potentialy a hundred natural events that could ruin your day any time now. Better get used to the idea.

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basingwerk wrote:
Any gas released by industry that has led to harmful changes in the Earth's climate is pollution in most people's books, whatever you may call it!


...and other fairy stories.

Not even the most dyed-in-the-wool pro-global-warming researcher has said that CO2 has, does or will lead to harmful climate changes. what they say is that it might, could or may.

In any case, CO2 comes mainly from natural sources. Only about 3% of it comes from human activities. So the earth is polluting itself, then?

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 22:39 
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Pete317 wrote:
Not even the most dyed-in-the-wool pro-global-warming researcher has said that CO2 has, does or will lead to harmful climate changes. what they say is that it might, could or may.

In any case, CO2 comes mainly from natural sources. Only about 3% of it comes from human activities. So the earth is polluting itself, then?


Argh.

The point is that the Earth has a fairly delicate equilibrium regarding the gases in its atmosphere, and we're messing with that balance - which may have nasty repercussions.

Don't we owe it to our kids to try to screw it up for them as little as possible?

Tc.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 23:38 
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The global warming theory was first mooted over a hundred years ago, but until the 'eighties it was regarded as nothing more than a scientific curiosity. After all, global temperatures had been dropping from the 'forties to the 'seventies, despite huge increases in CO2 emissions.
The science behind this is well-understood, and nobody argues against it.
Ultraviolet radiation from the sun warms the earth's surface which, as a result, emits infrared radiation. A particular wavelength of this radiation, at a wavelength of 15um, is absorbed by CO2 molecules - which in turn heat up.
This 15um radiation is emitted principally from very cold ground (such as within the arctic circle in winter) and, at current concentrations, is almost wholly absorbed by CO2.
Calculations show that this effect would lead to an average global warming of the lower atmosphere of in the order of 0.5 to 1 degree C, given a doubling of CO2 concentrations from pre-industrial levels. And, as the absorption of that particular wavelength is almost at saturation point, more and more CO2 will have a sharply diminishing effect.
That much is accepted as scientific fact. Such a small degree of warming will have no significant effect, and will go entirely unnoticed. We have orders of magnitude larger temperature swings between day and night, not to mention between summer and winter, or between tropics and polar regions.
Where the theory departs from scientific fact is this:
Water vapour is also a greenhouse gas, but very much more potent than CO2 - it absorbs a broad spectrum of infrared radiation, and there's also around one hundred times more of it in the atmosphere.
Now what the pro-warmers are saying is that the warming from CO2 causes more evaporation from the oceans, therefore more water vapour, and as water vapour is a very potent greenhouse gas, more warming - a positive feedback amplifying the effects of CO2 by itself. And now, all of a sudden, a less than one degree warming turns into almost ten degress.
What, of course, is completely ignored here is that most of the heat is already coming from the water vapour, with only a tiny amount from the CO2. So, if the water vapour is amplifying any effect, it's the effect from itself.
Also ignored is the fact that the radiative forcing from the concentrations of water vapour in the atmosphere should be giving us average global temperatures of almost eighty degrees C. Clearly this is not the case - if it was then life as we know it would not survive on earth.
So there must be a powerful negative feedback effect, and there is - from the water vapour itself. Firstly, clouds reflect ultraviolet radiation back into space, and secondly, convection in clouds serves to vault huge amounts of heat into the upper atmosphere - from where it's dissipated back into space. The higher the temperature at the surface, the greater the evaporation so the more clouds there are, and the greater this effect. It's a huge thermostat.
It's precisely this effect which is poorly handled, if at all, by the GCM's (global circulation models) which they have running on their tremendously expensive supercomputers. These GCMs are really little more than sophisticated random number generators. They cannot even predict today's temperatures based on known historical data, and they don't even agree amongst themselves. To get them to produce half-plausible results they have to employ 'fudge-factors' which are often orders of magnitude larger than the input data. Even a supercomputer is hopelessly inadequate when it comes to modelling such a hugely complex system as the atmosphere - it's something like trying to work out the national budget with an abacus.
These GCM's, after fiddling, tweaking, fudging and tuning, give predictions of temperature rises of anything between 1.5C to 10C. Guess which end of the scale gets splashed in the media.

What if they're right?

1) Temperatures are rising - Wrong. Satellite and radiosonde measurements have detected no increase in global temperatures over the last two decades. Only land-based measurements, which are subject to urban 'heat island' effects, have shown any increase.

2) Sea levels will rise - Wrong. Increased sea temperatures will result in more evaporation, and more precipitation of snow over the ice caps - resulting on both counts in a drop in sea levels.

3) Glaciers are retreating - Wrong. Some are, but others are advancing. You only hear about the ones which are retreating. Glaciers are very slow-moving rivers of ice - decreased snowfall at the source of a glacier will have the effect of less flow at the foot of the glacier several decades later.

4) High CO2 levels will cause runaway heating - Wrong. CO2 levels have been orders of magnitude higher than today in bygone ages - with no evidence of runaway heating.
Ice core records also show that high CO2 levels have historically followed times of high temperatures - rather than being the cause of them. This is because as the oceans warm they release large amounts of dissolved CO2 into the atmosphere.

5) An few degrees increase in global temperatures will be detrimental, and cause a huge increase in storms, hurricanes etc - Wrong. Temperatures have been higher than today within recorded history. For example, in medieval times - wine was grown as far north as York, and Greenland was settled by the Vikings. It was a golden period for agriculture. The worst storms in recorded history occurred during the Little Ice Age, when it was several degrees colder than today.

6) There will be an increase in diseases such as malaria - Wrong. Malaria isn't a tropical disease, there was a time it was endemic in Russia.

I hope I haven't bored you all to death by this time :wink:

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 23:54 
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_Tc_ wrote:
The point is that the Earth has a fairly delicate equilibrium regarding the gases in its atmosphere, and we're messing with that balance - which may have nasty repercussions.

Don't we owe it to our kids to try to screw it up for them as little as possible?


We owe it to our kids to ensure a prosperous future for them - so they are better able to withstand any disasters - natural or otherwise - which might befall them.
They will not thank us for impoverishing the world with some humungously expensive wild-goose, Canute-type venture.
And, even if the worst of the predictions happen to be true, there's precious little - if anything - that we can do about it, regardless of what they say.

Cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 00:04 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Observer wrote:
I saw the programme and found nothing "compelling" about it except the obvious one-sidedness.


What do you mean by one-sidedness? The programme examined a particular phenomenon and offered plausible explanations for the effects that had been discovered. What other side would you have liked to have seen discussed?


How about photometer records?


But it was those very records, and the varying levels they recorded that led to the disdcovery of the effect in the first place.


No it wasn't. It was dish evaporation rates.

You might find this helpful:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105


No it wasn't, it was lightmeter readings first assessed in Israel.

You might find this helpful

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/program ... rans.shtml


:) OK! I'll give you that one. Thanks.

Rigpig wrote:
Perhaps there just is no 'other side' many seem so utterly desperate to find. The 'natural cycles' argument is an easy one to deploy because it's almost imposssible to disprove, and if for whatever reason you don't want to believe the global warming theories, then believe this.
But let's suppose the theorists are right, and the timescales for meaningful action are measured in a couple of decades no longer. How long to we continue to provaricate in an effort to stave off actually doing something and altering our comfy lifestyles? Until we get to the point of no return beyond which the evidence becomes..well self evident? That would be a really smart (yet sadly representative of our society) legacy to leave our ancestors wouldn't it?


I'm afraid I'm just too used to junk science these days. Anthropogenic global warming theory has all the hallmarks of junk science. It leads us into the koyoto treaty, which, if fully implemented, would address about 5% of an imaginary problem at huge social and economic cost.

I think the precautionary principle in this case should lead us not to make damaging decisions on the basis of scant and inadequate evidence.

However, it's not really a subject that I have studied in sufficient detail to have a firm or final opinion. Call me a sceptic.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 01:45 
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Pete317 wrote:
(a very long and informative post)


Thank you for this information, it is a shame we can't get it published somewhere.


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SafeSpeed wrote:
However, it's not really a subject that I have studied in sufficient detail to have a firm or final opinion. Call me a sceptic.


Nor me, but rather than call be a sceptic, call me 'concerned'. Concerned that something just may be happening that nations and societies are prepeared to just sweep under the carpet, a legacy we may alter live to regret.
I hope my concern is unfounded.


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