Safe Speed Forums

I not convinced that it is absurd. Maybe it's a question of the Greater Good. If a bus has 20+ people on board doesn't it make sense that it should travel as freely as possible? However just because a vehicle has priority does not mean it has the right to force its way into the path of other traffic - common sense and the law still apply (I know common sense is not always the same as the law).

Neither am I, I am just puzzled as to where your coming from on this, and, through 3 pages of discussion your objection seems to me to have got somewhat, unintenially, muddled.

If it is just the rule that that is bothering you, why do you not display the same co-operation as (I assume) you did before the rule came into place? Afterall it's not the bus driver in front of you wrote the rule.

If your reacting to the policy of elevating buses above other road users, why bring the issue of road safety into the equation, as I really can't see that it has any adverse effects at all. Its really not difficult to work out when a bus wishes to pull out and I can't imagine many people have problems with this. For those that do, I doubt very much that this rule has anything whatsoever to do with it.

As you have acknowledged, your not concerned if your journey time is impacted, and it rarely is to any meaningful extent, so why not help the (upto) 80 people* on board have a smoother journey? That's why I said it's spiteful not to, it would be interesting to know why it isn't spiteful.

Also, is it not possible that the rule was introduced because the spirit of co-operation was waning?

*For those who are going to jump in and say that not all buses carry 80 people I know, but there is no point discussing anecdotal evidence that you sometimes see a bus with only 1 person on, because I can just say I sometimes see buses with 80 people on, which I do.

I'm sorry, but this appears to be merely an 'on-principle' objection to the rule.
There is no evidence that the road safety concern highlighted actually exists.

I have to say in my view it's just common courtesy to let buses pull out (or indeed any other hypothetical type of vehicle that needs to make frequent stops). If the bus is going to stop again fairly shortly you can pass it then. It's nothing to do with giving one class of vehicle favoured status.

Unfortunately we have got into a vicious circle of declining courtesy where drivers' increasing reluctance to let buses out leads to the removal of bus-stop laybys, thus making the drivers feel even less charitable towards buses, and so on...

And if you don't give priority to trams, you get squashed

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I have to say I've switched in an almost reciprocal way to Paul.

When I first started driving in London (about 30 years ago), I was insensed by the wink (count to three) pull-out that busses invariably adopted, and, in my juvenile way (I was then a juvenile!), I'd close order and make sure that it didn't get between me and the one in front of me.

Now... I subconsciously assess bus ingress/egress from a distance and if it looks like it'll be ready to go when I get there, I'll likely be 100 yards further back, If not, I'll be keeping up (but not tailgating).

Having said ALL that, I do appreciate the VERY IMPORTANT point Paul is banging his drum on - the wording of the rule, but have no intention of trying to enforce a change of wording by pissing off every bus driver I come across!

..

_________________
Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

I think the "give priority" rule for buses, assuming it's relatively recent, is yet another symptom of the growing animosity between road users that is being created by malicious traffic management.

I find myself agreeing with both sides of the argument. In principle you should be nice about it and let busses out. They have a job to do, they are monitored on keeping to their timetable, the people on them have to be in work on time etc. let it out, then at the next stop, overtake it.

Then came the bus lanes, eating away at the useable road space for cars on major routes. Rightly or wrongly drivers blamed the busses for these lanes and the attitude changed to one of, sod you mate, you have a bus lane which is holding me up, you don't need my help any more.

So now we have the buildouts which make the system even worse for cars and the attiude has changed to "oh shit! a bus, must not let it in front of me, lest I get held up for 20 minutes while it unloads a heard of old grannies at the next stop" so gaps are closed and the general mood changes from one of passive unhelpfullness to active agression when it comes to letting a bus out.

So now they have changed the rule, which has had no effect because most drivers wont be aware of the change and couldn't care less anyway, it's not like they have "didn't let the bus out" cameras yet.


I suspect a similar situation is developing / has developed with regards cyclists and cycle lanes.

It's not a recent change. The 1993 HC says "Give way to buses whenever you can do so safely, especially when they signal to pull away from bus stops."

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Was always told that buses are like dogs.. they stop at every lamp post!

Usually on the look-out for people at such places - though admit to feeling a little cross when they slam on brakes hard at the stops and think an indicator and no over shoulder looks or glances in either wing mirror mean it's " safe" to proceed.

Am with the mini-roundabout one. Though my wife's point was that the advice rather equated to damned if you do and damned if you don't as all would have to wait whilst hapless home owner either reversed into or out of driveway. She reckons "superfluous words" as driver should judge how to enter the drive based on actual circumstances.

I see her point having been "held up" by both versions myself with her and on my own too.

But still say my least fave is 164 - like Oscar for same reason.

Most - have to say seem common sense to me.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

When I was living in the Hague back in the mid 70's! you saw quite a lot of this!

*Trams*= *Railway_trains_on_roads* You DONT argue with them!

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Drivers tend to spot on a bike, don't they?

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

The bus thing is like passing a law making it mandatory for men to hold doors open for women.

If done out of chivalry it gives both parties a tiny shiver of good feeling towards each other. One has made a polite gesture, the other has received it and appreciated it.

But if it were the law, if women could demand that men held doors open for them, then all the goodwill would evaporate to be replaced by confrontation. And males who might previously have obliged now steadfastly refuse to comply out of bloody-mindedness.

It's just the same when the HC orders us to let buses out of stops.

You can't enforce chivalry. If it doesn't come willingly then it's best not coming at all!

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

..

_________________
Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

Buses do have right of way when pulling out from a bus-stop, and the driver indicates his intention to pull out by using his indicator... that's the law in the Netherlands, anyway. It seems to work quite well in practice, and as has been suggested in another post, any delays are minimal as the buses usually pull in again at the next stop further on down the road.

The worries about confusion (e.g. what is a bus, what is a bus-stop) do not seem to be a problem, buses/coaches tend to get the benefit of the doubt, and I have rarely seen dangerous situations caused by this:
bus-type-vehicle + indicator = temporary slow-down of vehicles approaching from behind.

OK. Having thought about this overnight, I confess to emotional thinking and bloody mindedness. Capri is right to point out that bus drivers aren't responsible, but he's wrong to think I've been 'hurting' those on the bus. What I have been doing is failing to assist those on the bus.

I'm still convinced that the rule is wrong because it distorts priorities and causes animosity. And I speak from personal experience of the animosity!

I might just let the odd bus pull out in the future. Thanks folks. I've learned something. Great forum.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

My point is that drivers tend to spot quite easily - why do you think this is?

Also, the HC says "Dipped headlights, even in good daylight, may also make you more conspicuous." - It doesn't say it will and therefore you can ride around absolved of all responsibility...

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

As I have said before.

Im not convinced that High Viz/day running lights actually help!

early experiments in "Invisibility" used both of these techniques to confuse attackers about speed and direction of travel of targets!

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html

I also remember seeing a "Very" impresive demonstation of making an Aircraft *dissappear* at the touch of a switch! (The plane was covererd in small electric light bulbs!)

"Dazzle" clothing may make one more visible, but if it confuses other drivers it could well prove counterproductive (I wonder if anybody has actually done any *serious* work on this?? or have TPTB simply assumed (as useual) that *more is better!*)

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

..

_________________
Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

:loco:
But could the biker see where he's going? Especially on a country road with no streetlamps and no moon? I know I wouldn't ride at night without lights... And I hope you don't.


Maybe not, but I think it helps and car drivers need all the help they can get... Plus I don't have my headlights on for me to be able to see - it's for the car drivers.



So why do soldiers wear camouflaged jackets etc.?

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

..

_________________
Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?