Safe Speed Forums

Sounds reasonable. We don't intentionally block bad drivers on the road (or at least we shouldn't), not just because we don't want any crash they're going to have to involve us but also because it's not up to us to do that. Surely the same applies to cyclists. I'd also be wary of using my car to block a cyclist as I could potentially do as much harm as allowing them to carry on.

Final point, and from a purely selfish point of view, what would be the view of the police and courts if I knocked someone of their bicycle while trying to prevent them riding under a bus they hadn't seen?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Yes, that's good. Thanks. Can we still dig deeper?

Why can't we usurp...? What if we're very skilled and very experienced? Can we 'usurp' then? (I know we can't.)

Is this about individual responsibility? We have to take responsibility for our total situation and allow others to take responsibility for their total situation?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely. And you were spot on here, Paul:



"usurp" = wrongfully to appropriate to oneself a right = "arrogate" - which has the same root as "arrogant"

We are not entitled to impose our will on others, no matter how well-intentioned we may be. Taking pre-emptive action that obstructs another person's exercise of free will cannot be justified. Respect for others is the cornerstone of a free society. Maybe that's a bit pompous. Sorry but I don't see any other way to express it.

Yep. I'm happy. We've arrived at last. Thanks to everyone for the assistance.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So, should I carry on keeping as close to the left as reasonably practicable when queuing up to go straight on or left at a set of lights, giving room to hypothetical emergency vehicles or should I modify my behaviour to allow cyclists room up the inside?

I think that probably depends on the cyclist who is trying to pass you!

The truth is there'll be some who want to go on your right, and some who want to go on your left. Probably best to take each situation as it comes and make an on the spot judgement.

That I do - but typically I arrive without a bike in site

I take a middle position until I see another user (pushbike, motorbike or emergency vehicle) wishing to come up nearside or offside, when I make additional room, if I can (and subject to other users), on the appropriate side.

I'm sure it hasn't escaped you, Paul that:



ought to apply equally to governments as it does to private individuals.

Law that seeks to regulate behaviour with respect to road safety does usurp the individual's fundamental right of self-determination of his own safety and can only be justified where:



is, to a material extent, inadequately discharged.

Therefore, I refuse to comply with law that requires me to fix my mobile phone in a holder where I have to strain to reach it and to see it. The state shall not usurp my right to determine how I should best ensure my own safety and discharge my duty to other road users.

Space in front is the key - if you later find something that might make your position obstructing, then you can use the space to move. I leave a good six feet even after everything has stopped. Often I'll have a well right or well left initial position to give me a good view behind in one of the door mirrors.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That's an excellent principle, but in practice I fear that a proportion of the population aren't up to it. Let's hope the cops can weed them out...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yup, agreed - and exercised where practicable - though in the queue I was thinking of, a six-foot gap in front would be antisocial thanks to the comparatively short road - may even spill the queue back to a main road!

I smiled at this in the Express today:-

'CYCLISTS beware! Actress Sheila Hancock, who is receiving rave reviews for her portrayal of the mother from hell in The Anniversary at London's Garrick Theatre, is ready to take her wrath on to the roads.

"I can't stand cyclists," she says. "When I'm driving in London they're the anarchists of the traffic lights, screaming at you like banshees if you dare to come anywhere near them. They drive me insane."
As for those skin-tight cycling shorts, she storms:"That disgusting Lycra they get into makes me worry about essential parts of their anatomy. It's particularly offensive when they're middle-aged men. I can't stand middle-aged men in Lycra." Indeed.'

It's just jealousy!

Have also noticed alot of cycle path's now going across traffic at traffic lights, what are they thinking

If a cyclist decides to come up the side of my truck and then across the front, it is highley unlikely that i would not see them. If the light turns green, i am going to be spitting a cyclist out of the rear axles

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Steve

Cars get jealous because the cyclist moves ahead of them while they are stuck in a queue.

One poster here even stated the reason that he might be slowed down a little while having to overtake the cyclist again further up the road.

I cycle regularly from NW London to Oxford Street W1 on a Monday morning. I generally use the A41 Finchley Road (partly because the A502 through the middle of Hampstead is too steep and the A5 is a bit far away though I have used both these routes). During this time the bus lanes are in force, and the only problem comes with passing buses (at traffic lights as well as bus stops) because it can be hard to find a gap past them.

Cycle advance lanes are useful for the reason stated previously - if I'm at the front of the traffic, I am more visible to the drivers who can see where I am going. I often signal by pointing where I am intending to go, even if it is straight ahead.

SS -i have also thought long and hard and dug on my works training for setting up safe systems of work , and ideas for prevention of accidents, because basicilly i would sooner hurt someones feelings than see them physically hurt.
[quote="Earl Purple"]Cars get jealous because the cyclist moves ahead of them while they are stuck in a queue.

One poster here even stated the reason that he might be slowed down a little while having to overtake the cyclist again further up the road.

quote]

I couldn,t care less if i have to pass the cyclist again, i'll folow him/her UNTIL I find a spot where i can pass giving the cyclist as much room as possible.
I would far sooner have the cyclist cycling in front of me at a non wobling rate than wobbling between me and pavement. ( You see SOME cyclists in here think i hate cyclists - i dont, but having been on both sides of the fence i try to help them to survive, its not nice to have to get a bent wheel bouncing up a pavement to get out of the way of some idiot driver .)
Least damaging alternative is he scores my paint. Worst case he bounces off me into road as he wobbles at 2 mph. Present luny labour thinking is that all collisions between cyclist and car are fault of car.

Paul - i read your answer and i can see your point. However i put forward a differing one based on safety and my feelings of obligation to my fellow road users.
There is an alternate arguement to Pauls idea of "usurping " the cyclists space.
Scenario - before you round a blind bend, you see an accident take place at lights- cyclist tries to get between car and pavement, ends up in middle of road under car.
You round bend to find car bearing down on accident - can he stop( he should be able to in theory, but you doubt it)
Do you flash lights/flag him down or to avoid "usurping " his space - do nothing.

Sorry Paul, i work in an environment where each and every one of my colleagues is expected to safeguard the safety of us all. I daily trust my life to my workmates. I would expect any one of them to pull me from a move into danger, as i would be expected to do , WITHOUT QUESTION, or block my passage into a dangerous situation, because they had seen it and i had not. Is that so different from preventing a cyclist committing Hari Kari

well that was a rivetting read.... and just when i thought some sense had come into the discussion back comes our slightly irate friend.

you wouldn't object to following someone restricting you to 40 in a NSL because they thought it would be safer for you?

Ed - First as i have said before - the road width i am talking about is where 2 transit vans /a car and bus can sit side by side.Not your average dual carriage way.
The one i guard against is the one who bombs down the road, jumps on to the pavement then back on to the road when road clearance is nill.
He can't get to the front because there aint enough room, but he'll try and in the process either take out a lot of paint on your car or cause a lot of grief in insurance terms in the meantime. And for what - to be about 3 seconds in front of the Q.

And at the end , he'll be in danger of merging into the pedestrian guard rails or your back end.
My beef is not with the proper cyclist,we do get a lot of them around this sort of junction - they behave reasonably and get courtesy- but with the cycling equivalent of the car "joyrider", who has no road sense, can't wait and is only looking out for no 1.

if i was following someone in an NSL , not safe to overtake ,they were doing 40 , id sit and wait , and presume that they had a good reason to stay at 40 - like id sit and wait to pass a cyclist doing 8 mph, till it was safe for BOTH OF US for me to pass.(YOU SEE PATIENCE ONLY COSTS A LITTLE TIME) You obviously didnt read the bit about me following cyclists - as i said - i give them plenty of room.
I've cycled in this neck of the woods, had cars pass me , almost force me off the road because they had no patience.
So now when i see a cyclist i on a dual carriage way i give him lots of room.

We don't have advanced cycle lanes in this town , pity as then they could get in front .What we have at the popular junctions is Kami Kazi cyclists - i think that after 30 years on a pedal cycle i'm qualified to call them that. We don't get m/bikers causing probs, even the m/bikers hate the cyclists

fair enough.

it just seems more hazardous for a cyclist to join the queue 10 cars back, pull away with the cars at a different rate hence holding the remaining queue back (in fact in this situation i would most likely sit a few feet out from the curb until i decided it was safe for them to pass) until it was safe to overtake, possibly not making it through that sequence of the lights.
now if i thought all drivers were as patien and considerate as your good self thats a good option..... the chances of someone trying to make the lights & squeeze past... quite high in my experience.

luckily not usually a problem for me at the front i can usually make it across the junction before the front car (1/2 a mile down the road is my current personal best from a standing start ) or if in the queue i position myself to left of centre of the car in front and can at least keep pace with it to halfway through the junction before dropping back to the left.