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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 03:25 
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Motorists will have to drive electric cars for UK to meet climate change targets

Motorists will have to switch to electric cars if Britain is to meet its legally-binding commitment to cut carbon dioxide emissions, a Government report warns.

By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
Last Updated: 12:18AM GMT 01 Dec 2008

The Committee on Climate Change will recommend that large numbers of motorists must switch to the greener vehicles by 2025.

The influential Committee, headed by Lord Turner, sets out the major technological advances needed for Britain to meet its commitment of cutting emissions by 80 per cent to halt global warming.

Gordon Brown is a major advocate of electric cars and is likely to welcome the recommendation. He has already called for a million "green collar" jobs to be created in new environmentally-friendly industries. At the G8 summit in Japan last summer, Mr Brown's wife was photographed test-driving green vehicles.

Today's report is expected to say that Britain currently generates the equivalent of 10-12 tons of carbon dioxide annually per person - about 700m tons in total. This must be cut to two tons per person annually by 2050 - about 12 pounds per person each day.

However, a typical family car uses the total daily allowance driving just 25 miles. Therefore, it is not seen as feasible to meet the new targets without largely abandoning the internal combustion engine.

Last month, Professor Julia King, a Government adviser and member of the Climate Change committee, said: "In the long term, C02-free road transport fuel is the only way to decarbonise road transport. That means electric vehicles, with novel batteries charged by zero-carbon electricity or hydrogen produced from zero-carbon electricity".

The Government is believed to favour so-called "plug-in hybrids" which run on electricity but also have small internal combustion engines.

Lord Turner's report, called Building a Low Carbon Economy, will set out a series of five year "carbon budgets" to cover the period until 2022. These will set out how much carbon the country must cut in each period and the technological methods that will be required to achieve the reductions. Whitehall is set to lead the way with each minister given a target to reduce carbon emissions in their department.

The report is also expected to recommend a big increase in carbon capture - technology which stores carbon dioxide emitted from the burning of coal and gas by power stations.

The Government has already cut road taxes on electric cars sharply. However, Mr Brown has met widespread protests when attempting to increase taxes on so-called gas guzzlers and petrol. The Treasury recently watered-down plans to double the tax on some polluting family cars.


I wonder how much these cars will cost? Will we see all government officials driving them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 07:57 
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Will we see all government officials driving them.


"Two volts Prescott"? I doubt it

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 08:52 
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Dixie wrote:
I wonder how much these cars will cost? Will we see all government officials driving them.


i've driven a few electric vehicles now, city cars & delivery vehicles mostly, and they're getting there.

unfortunately economincs of scale mean they are currently relatively expensive, catch 22 really, when volumes increase the expensive bits (batteries & drives) will come down (and already are to an extent).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 09:22 
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Where are they going to get all the "green" electricity by 2025 then?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:34 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Where are they going to get all the "green" electricity by 2025 then?


Not to mention the "Green" chemicals to make the batteries!

Electric cars are a nice idea, and are very useful in certain enviroments (as they have been for well over a century) but they are not a "Universal solution".

Neither are hybrids.

For occasional use/low annual milage the ICE using hydrocarbon fuel is almost impossible to beat.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:58 
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... major technological advances needed for Britain to meet its commitment of cutting emissions by 80 per cent to halt global warming...

This is a great example of the stupidity of politicians. Does Global Warming exist anyway? Will this reduction by the U.K. halt it? Why did they sign up to something that they did not understand and for which the technology does not exist?

As for:

Quote:
Motorists will have to switch to electric cars if Britain is to meet its legally-binding commitment to cut carbon dioxide emissions, a Government report warns.

This is also misleading tosh.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 13:48 
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This is a great example of the stupidity of politicians


Thatcher (whether you liked her or not) made a good point when she said, on her first election, that she didnt want to be remembererd as the first Woman prime minister, she wanted to be remembererd as the first one with a Science degree!

I wonder how many of the current sitting MPs have technical qualifications any more advanced than O level physics (and, indeed, how many have even that!)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 18:39 
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So there's less tax on "green" cars and presumably on "green" electricity. Yeah the government soo want that.

Not that I don't want an electric car, I'd love one, but it would have to go quickly and for a long distance.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 19:27 
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Australia: Global cooling fails to cool protagonists of global warming

Europe is shivering through an extreme cold snap. One of the coldest winters in the US in more than 100 years is toppling meteorological records by the dozen, and the Arctic ice is expanding. Even Australia has been experiencing unseasonable snow. But the stories about global warming have not stopped, not for a second.

In May last year, The Sydney Morning Herald breathlessly reported that climate change had reduced the Southern Ocean's ability to soak up carbon dioxide, claiming that as a result global warming would accelerate even faster than previously thought. The story was picked up and repeated in a number of different journals around the region. But this week the CSIRO suggested the exact opposite. "The new study suggests that Southern Ocean currents, and therefore the Southern Ocean's ability to soak up carbon dioxide, have not changed in recent decades," it said. This time the story got no coverage in the SMH, and was run on the ABC's website as evidence the Southern Ocean was adapting to climate change.

CSIRO oceanographer Stuart Rintoul, a co-author of the study, said it did not disprove global warming and he did not believe its lack of an alarmist tone was responsible for the poor coverage. But the story is being pointed out as an example of media bias on global warming. Critics argue that the ABC and the Fairfax media are the worst offenders.

ABC board member Keith Windschuttle said yesterday the national broadcaster was in breach of its charter to provide a diversity of views. "The ABC and the Fairfax press rarely provide an opportunity for global warming sceptics to put their view," Mr Windschuttle said. "The science is not settled. "We are seeing an increasing number of people with impeccable scientific backgrounds questioning part or whole of the story. I don't believe the ABC has been reflecting the genuine diversity of the debate. Under its own act, the ABC is required to produce a diversity of views."

Bob Carter of James Cook University, one of the world's best-known climate change sceptics, said there was no doubt Windschuttle was correct. "With very few exceptions, press reporters commenting on global warming are either ignorant of the science matters involved, or wilfully determined to propagate warming hysteria because that fits their personal world view, or are under editorial direction to focus the story around the alarmist headline grab -- and often all three," Professor Carter said.

National Climate Centre former head William Kininmonth said coverage of global warming had been hysterical and was getting worse, with a large public relations effort inundating the media with information from the alarmist side.


But then, don't forget: Greenishness is next to Godliness.
Don't let the scientific FACTS get in the way of enactment of Social Change.
All the cars will get "charged-up" from wind turbines. When there no wind they will be charged-up by generators powered by burning rubbish, or by methane from landfills. We'll just have to turn all the lights out, the tv off, and eat cold food to get the car charged.
Oh, did I forget ?
Probably the only way to meet the targets will be to stop all IE cars running and to ration the quantity of electricity generated by CO2 emitting power generating plant.
The green agenda can only be met by large population shrinkage, some say down to 15 million.

Quote:
“The overwhelming growth in world population caused by the positive birth-rate loop is a recent phenomenon, a result of mankind's very successful reduction of worldwide mortality. The controlling negative feedback loop has been weakened, allowing the positive loop to operate virtually without constraint. There are only two ways to restore the resulting imbalance. Either the birth rate must be brought down to equal the new, lower death rate, or the death rate must rise again.”


Quote:
“Man possesses, for a small moment in his history, the most powerful combination of knowledge, tools, and resources the world has ever known. He has all that is physically necessary to create a totally new form of human society - one that would be built to last for generations. The two missing ingredients are a realistic, long-term goal that can guide mankind to the equilibrium society and the Human Will to achieve that goal.”


http://www.truthforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=349

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_Growth

The birth-rate cannot [be allowed to] drop, we are enslaved by the need to produce. Do what you will, but a person at 60+ is not going to be as productive.
So, the death rate will have to rise, preferably among the old and/or sick.
Hmmm...cost of energy....too expensive to keep warm.
Cost of food, too expensive to eat properly.
Extra disease.....and if that doesn't kill you the hospital will !

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 21:23 
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malcolmw wrote:
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... major technological advances needed for Britain to meet its commitment of cutting emissions by 80 per cent to make global warming the fault of other countries, like the ones making batteries so britain can call itself "carbon neutral"...

This is a great example of the stupidity of politicians. Does Global Warming exist anyway? Will this reduction by the U.K. halt it? Why did they sign up to something that they did not understand and for which the technology does not exist?


I fixed that quote- it now accurately reflects our hopes, dreams and best case scenario if AGW is indeed true.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 23:07 
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I don't care if I have to run my car on dead cats, as long as the performance is the same as the one I've got (which isn't much), it never goes wrong and I can run about 400 miles before having to find more dead cats.

No matter what we run on the green lobby will wind a stick to beat us with, cars are just too good a consumer product for them to ignore. Home many tonnes of CO2 are caused by women buy shoes they never wear?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 08:11 
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The thing that gets me is if you believe in the whole greenhouse gas thing, methane is far far more damaging than CO2, yet you never hear the greenies complaining about all the cow farts destroying our climate, presumably because cows are natural...

umm, no, the modern cow is a result of generations of selective breeding and would be unable to survive without humans to look after them, the sheer numbers of cows around pumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere is also a direct result of humans farming them, their numbers would be much lower if nature were to take it's course without humans interfering.

So why don't we have any schemes in place for methane emissions, there must be at least one industrial process that emits methane into the atmosphere which you can tax, why can't we have a methane credits system, or methane sequestration schemes where we attach a big bag to the cows backsides and collect their farts, hell you could burn them as fuel. Any university student who has consumed a few pints could demonstrate that to you.

This is what gets me, and I realise I'm mostly preaching to the converted here, why does it always come down to it being the fault of cars, what's the real reason for all of this. I never thought I'd end up like the conspiracy theorist nut-jobs but there must be an alternate agenda going on somewhere and the sooner we find out what it is the better.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:12 
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The agenda driving all of it is social change.
"needed" social change, such as population reduction.
Although the greens deny it, their whole philosophy is driving towards population reduction on a massive scale.
The "climate change" agenda demands reductions in emissions. So the car is chosen as a sacrifice to those demanding change. When all cars are gone and the climate change continues (as it will, it always has) then another sacrifice will be needed.
It isn't much to do with the climate really, it's to do with using any excuse to bully people into subservience.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:34 
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Lum wrote:
The thing that gets me is if you believe in the whole greenhouse gas thing, methane is far far more damaging than CO2


There's no need for that to "get you" because there is a very simple explanation. Methane oxidises into co2 in a short period (a few years), but then remains as co2 in the atmosphere for millennia. It may be a more potent greenhouse gas, but it lasts in the air for an infinitely shorter time.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:45 
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Lum wrote:
The thing that gets me is if you believe in the whole greenhouse gas thing, methane is far far more damaging than CO2, yet you never hear the greenies complaining about all the cow farts destroying our climate, presumably because cows are natural...


the greenies are complaing about agricultural methane emmisions. Work is being done to reduce it too. Different feeds are being looked at to stop the cows burping so much. It's they burping not the farting of ruminants that provides the methane. All them bugs in the rumen produce methane as a by-product. We then feed the superunleaded rocket fuel feed to make them grow faster and milk better and they produce even more. You will proably find that there are way more ruminants as a reasult as us farming them than there would be naturally. With good management an acre can keep a cow in grub all year or 4 lowland sheep. Green lobbyists blame famers for keeping them, but they don't keep them if people don't eat them. A bit like blaming factories for making stuff, they only make stuff people buy.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:21 
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What gets me about global warming is this:

Balence all the scaremongering about what will happen against what the world is doing to combat it.


Half the measures taken to combat it are nothing short of shams- look at the energy used in recycling, the net inefficiency of many "green" power generation schemes that in reality makes them less ideal than burning coal, the manufacture of cars such as the pious that, by the yanks "dust to dust" scale, makes it more polluting than a hummer, the manufacture of commercial biofuel, the list goes on and on.

Yet all of these and so much more are held up and cherished as solutions by those who dare to lecture us as to what is right. Are they really so *ignorant as to the futility of it?

If you believe the AGW hype and were pragmatic about how it will affect us, the way forward would surely be to prepare for a post-holocaust world, stockpiling what you need to survive (guns, ammunition, water purification equipment, long life food, maybe a landrover and fuel/lots of spares) in a bunker somewhere?


(*it's such ignorance of the "followers", that, amounst other things, makes me so skeptical)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 13:11 
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Lum wrote:
I realise I'm mostly preaching to the converted here, why does it always come down to it being the fault of cars


Why do you preach to the converted? Do you believe that the more we preach to each other, the "truer" it becomes to deny climate change? Is your belief evidence based, or is it part of a herd instinct? Can you be sure that the people you preach to base their beliefs on evidence, rather than superstition, fashion or ignorance?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 13:35 
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hairyben wrote:
If you believe the AGW hype and were pragmatic about how it will affect us, the way forward would surely be to prepare for a post-holocaust world


Yes, or move to Canada!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 19:39 
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Here's an idea to solve the methane problem, you pay me and I won't keep any cows! Sound good? Anyone? :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 20:10 
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It's funny that overpopulation should be mentioned, that's one point I'd actually agree on.

I really despise the way they're going about it though, trying to get rid of cars so that old people get to rot in their homes and so that people in poor areas can't get work.

I guess it's because there is no way anyone is this country would vote for a China-like one couple, one child regime, and no-one want to tell developing countries that have finally gotten access to some degree of health care that there's no longer any need to have 10 kids in order to ensure that one or two survive to adulthood. In the UK we're also faced with the looming pensions crisis and desperately need a large influx of young people and immigrants in order to pay for the retirement of (if my calculations are correct) the first generation of old people who have had access to good healthcare all their lives.[1]

I have to confess I'd have more respect for someone who would come out and propose direct solutions to the above rather than skirting about the edges trying to bring it in through the back door, however anyone who does this will likely be labeled a fascist by the media and vilified.

So the best option I reckon is to be prepared for whatever is coming our way, from simple things like flood defences to an ultimate goal of colonising other worlds, alternatively we could just let nature wipe us out, as we run around arrogantly believing we can change things like a primitive race building fires to make the sun god come back.


On a related note I do actually believe in recycling, there are only a finite amount of resources on this planet and even if we did somehow acheive a perfect harmony with nature and ensure the long term survival of our species we'd still eventually run out of resources, recycling will make them last a lot longer and give us more time to sort out finding another planet to inhabit.

[1]Of course Labour are going about this all wrong, by taxing everyone to death people are deciding they can't afford to have kids. Good job guys.


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