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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 21:29 
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for debate. Tis swings and roundabouts really as we will never please everyone :roll:

It is very clear that Monbiot wants everyone to ride a bike. :roll: Not everyone can.. by the way. I have a number of patients who would find it impossible and my truly lovely Wildy :neko: wife has to be careful when on her bike or walking and know when she has to yield to common sense given her past. :roll:


Yes I agree the demise of the orang-utan would be a serious loss to us. Our closest relative from our primeval past if you like and who would want to see the demise of a simian person like "Clive" of the "Every Which Way But .. " series of films ..


However .. Bristol Uni has published a peer reviewed piece ( I know how fixated some get by the mention of "peer review" as if something "marvellous which cannot ever be disputed" :roll:

Umm.. we find out things everyday which supersede and revise those opinions.. and really they are "ephemeral in concept" :wink:

But .. Bristol Uni researchers found that those who exercise and ride the most .. er.. fart more CO2 into the atmosphere than the tubs of lard who drive Veyrons :lol: :lol: :lol: And :yesyes: I admit the child in me finds that very funny :lol:

But enough of my witterings.. this is a fairly decent springboard for chats ;) of a polite and refined nature.

I do like the Bolton News and my sisters Jazz and Ju-Ju alerted me to this piece as a potential discussion piece. :lol:

It is swings and roundabouts. We think of fair trade in a patronising way. We evaluate by our own standards. What we see as "poverty wages" can have the purchasing power of twenty times that amount in that particular economy and thus would not be "poverty slave and exploitative labour" in that more objective context. I fully agree that a fair price is paid .. but I would have to reserve a judgement as to what constitutes the true and fair price in a particular economic system.. and it may not be as per our own perception based on the cost of living in our own domain on this planet. As these economies develop . then so too will the supply/demand and price curves. These curves and graphs are actually etched in peeer reviewed and textbooks across our developed little horizons ..and our eco-warriors dohave their work cut out at disproving established and peer reviewed facts down the industrial decades after all :wink: :popcorn:

Why the eco-muppets hate us Swiss.. we give zero quarter. :popcorn: :wink:

C'mon.. sign up with a polite and non ad hominem attack. :wink:




Quote:


Will biofuels really save the planet?
By Kat Dibbits
Comment
THERE are few people who would deny that, generally speaking, Britain's transport industry is not particularly environmentally sound.

Fossil fuels, which are used to make petrol and diesel, are one of the main carbon emitters responsible for global warming.

In a bid to move away from fossil fuels, the British government has, under an EU directive, introduced plans to replace five per cent of vehicle fuel with biofuel by the year 2010.

advertisementThis amount will rise to 20 per cent by 2020.

Mass-produced biofuel is made from a number of crops, including sugar cane, soya oil, palm oil, wheat and corn.

In theory, fuels made from plants reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by vehicles as plants absorb carbon while growing, which is then released again when the fuel is burnt.

The government has embraced biofuels as a way to tackle climate change, and Gordon Brown included the issue in his budget.

But while the idea of cutting down on the use of fossil fuels may seem attractive, the idea has many critics.

The main arguments against the adoption of biofuels centres around three main points.

The first is that the creation of biofuel from any of the sources mentioned above is highly energy intensive.

Therefore, the actual production of the fuel would create more carbon emissions than the use of it would save.

Secondly, huge swathes of virgin rainforest are being chopped down to make way for farmland in order to grow biofuel crops.

The conversion of rainforests into palm oil plantations is a huge threat to many species of plants and animals, including the orang-utan which could become extinct due to deforestation.

There is also concern that farmers will choose to grow crops for fuel rather than for food, leading to increased famine.

Would you consider using bio-fuels to help save the environment?
Add your comment below

Environmental analyst Lester Brown said: "Put simply, the world is set for a head-on collision between the world's 800 million affluent automobile owners and food consumers."

And criticism for the idea comes from all quarters. The Bolton Alternative Fuel Co-Operative use waste oil from local restaurants and businesses and convert it into a form of biodiesel.

They are horrified at the thought that they might be lumped in with the huge international biofuel companies.

Brian Rylance, from the co-operative, said: "We are fuelling vehicles from waste."

Brian started using fuel from waste oil after hearing a speaker at a Greenhouse Project event. He began to buy the fuel but, as supplies got short, decided it would be easier to make it himself.

The co-operative works with Bolton Council to collect waste oil, and one of the council's vehicles runs on the fuel, bringing the idea full circle.

Brian says: "You know food miles? If you can imagine fuel miles' and how many litres of fuel get burnt just transporting and delivering fuel from far-off countries to here, well what we do is all happening within 20 miles.

"We're really concerned about the shift to large-scale industry using palm oil and the effects on biodiversity and the rainforest that will have. If you like, it's taking something good and turning it into something bad.

"We tend to get branded as part of the biofuels', but we see ourselves as very much separate from large-scale industrial processors. We collect locally and provide locally. It closes the circle, whereas we look in abject horror at the plant in Tyneside - it's a multi-million pound thing with its own quay so it can unload from far afield. It negates the whole point. I have a horrible joke about how every litre from there comes with its own personalised name of an extinct orang-utan."

The co-operative also runs a short course with Bolton University which looks at the practical, regulatory and legal aspects of producing biofuels from waste oil.

Large scale biofuel production is generally seen as a political move rather than an environmental one. After all, the production of biofuel from palm oil is actually less environmentally sound than the production of petrol.

A report by the Dutch consultancy Delft Hydraulics shows that every ton of palm oil results in 33 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions, or 10 times as much as petroleum produces.

Journalist George Monbiot said in the Guardian: "The reason governments are so enthusiastic about biofuels is that they don't upset drivers. They appear to reduce the amount of carbon from our cars, without requiring new taxes.

"It's an illusion sustained by the fact that only the emissions produced at home count towards our national total. The forest clearance in Malaysia doesn't increase our official impact by a gram."

Yet this is a problem which the government is aware of. Monbiot states in his article that last year the environment secretary David Miliband wrote on his blog that palm oil plantations "are destroying 0.7 per cent of the Malaysian rainforest each year, reducing a vital natural resource (and in the process, destroying the natural habitat of the orang-utan)."

Monbiot believes that a five-year freeze on biofuels is necessary. But he is not hopeful. "Stopping them requires one hell of a battle, but it has to be fought," he says.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:17 
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The issue is not about bio-fuels it is about CARS.

Anything that takes away the argument about the environmental damage allegedly done by cars must be squashed immediately.

The eco-twats are against personal powered transportation OF ANY KIND.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:47 
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I'd certainly use biofuels if it weren't for the punitive taxation because the treasury consider SVO to be a "fuel substitute" and levies duty that makes almost carbon-neutral SVO more expensive than dino-diesel.

However, help is at hand for the poor beleaguered oil-burning motorist in the form of the Exchequer's realisation that it's costing them more to police the plethora of small "producers" who burn vegetable oil than they get back in tax. This document is HMRC's proposed way forward, and it looks like from this summer anyone might be able to "convert" biomass and its products to up to 2,500 litres of road fuel per annum without needing to register or pay fuel duty. Joined-up thinking at last!

I predict a rise in the sale of supermarket "basic" vegetable oil and the smell of frying chips in the air :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 02:12 
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The tax on self-made biodiesel is already very low.
The tax on "food" oils converted to be used, or used directly, as fuel is higher.
That won't change. They don't want a run on tesco rapeseed oil for cars etc.
In any case, if you want a good reason why NOT to go the bio-fuel route you only have to look at the states, where the use of corn to make ethanol has caused a considerable reduction in the amount available for export and a rise in the price.
Just as an aside, the availability of "chip shop" used oil for transesterification has caused the availability of same to be very low now. A guy I work with makes his own diesel from ex-chip-shop oil, and he is finding that the shops want him to pay them for it now !


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 08:10 
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jomukuk wrote:
The tax on self-made biodiesel is already very low.
The tax on "food" oils converted to be used, or used directly, as fuel is higher.
That won't change.

Did you read the HMRC page I linked?
Quote:
We are looking to ease the burdens of the biofuels regime on non-commercial producers and on HMRC. It is no longer cost-effective to maintain on the register the steadily growing numbers of very small and often inactive home-based producers, all of whom currently have to register. We therefore wish to introduce a de minimis production level of 2,500 litres per annum below which they do not need to enter premises or submit returns.

HMRC have confirmed that means anyone who produces below the de minimis amount for their own use would not pay fuel duty.

Currently everyone who is running on home-made biodiesel, no matter whether produced by transesterification, co-solvency, filtration, or just reclassifying "food" oil as a road fuel, is required to register as a fuel producer and pay fuel duty monthly on the amount of fuel made or set aside. The de minimis of 2,500 litres is 550 gallons and at 30mpg you can get 16,500 miles on that. Pragmatically, this means that nearly everyone who would run on SVO or home-made bio-d won't pay fuel duty if HMRC implement this proposal.

jomukuk wrote:
In any case, if you want a good reason why NOT to go the bio-fuel route you only have to look at the states, where the use of corn to make ethanol has caused a considerable reduction in the amount available for export and a rise in the price.
Just as an aside, the availability of "chip shop" used oil for transesterification has caused the availability of same to be very low now. A guy I work with makes his own diesel from ex-chip-shop oil, and he is finding that the shops want him to pay them for it now !

I don't think that market forces is a good reason not to include the use of bio-fuels in a multi-faceted approach to meeting power needs. Currently, there is a lot of land lying fallow and attracting subsidy from the EU to prevent the over-production of food and that land could be used for fuel crops. Of course, if everybody went over to bio-fuels tomorrow there would be supply issues but (thankfully IMO) more and more stringent emissions legislation has left us with modern vehicles that are incapable of running on neat bio-fuel, which means that those of us who don't believe in junking perfectly good vehicles and are running "old clunkers" should have enough to go around.

To answer your aside - waste cooking oil should be considered a valuable energy source. Far too long it's been treated as pure waste and allowed to pollute and if chip-shops etc. get something back and it encourages them to change their oil more regularly, that's all to the good. As an aside, the transfats that are so harmful to humans don't make good road fuel, so if they have to pay (lots) to dispose of that gloop but get paid for their waste (non-hydrogenated) vegetable oils it should benefit the nation's help by removing the commercial advantage to using transfats for cooking.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 19:53 
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"If the product does not meet the appropriate definition it will be considered a fuel substitute and will attract a higher rate of duty. See sub-paragraph 3.1.1 for more information.

For example, in order to be Biodiesel, a product must meet all of the following criteria:

It must be of 'Diesel quality' – see paragraph 3.3 below; and
It must be a liquid – not gaseous at a temperature of 15°C and under a pressure of 1013.25 millibars; and
It must be made from biomass or waste cooking oil;
The total ester content must not be less than 96.5% by weight; and
The sulphur content must not exceed 0.005% by weight or be nil"



Guess that lets out tesco then ?

Edited:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 08:58 
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jomukuk wrote:
"If the product does not meet the appropriate definition it will be considered a fuel substitute and will attract a higher rate of duty. See sub-paragraph 3.1.1 for more information.

For example, in order to be Biodiesel, a product must meet all of the following criteria:

It must be of 'Diesel quality' – see paragraph 3.3 below; and
It must be a liquid – not gaseous at a temperature of 15°C and under a pressure of 1013.25 millibars; and
It must be made from biomass or waste cooking oil;
The total ester content must not be less than 96.5% by weight; and
The sulphur content must not exceed 0.005% by weight or be nil"



Guess that lets out tesco then ?

Edited:

Actually, no! Pure vegetable oil meets all the criteria for biodiesel for tax purposes. The only sticking point is that HMRC have taken the perverse stance that the producer must do the processing - which isn't one of the criteria laid down by HODA etc.

Let's look at those criteria:
  • It must be of 'Diesel quality' – see paragraph 3.3 below; and
    Para 3.3 says it must be capable of being used for the same purpose as heavy oil. Now heavy oil is any hydrocarbon oil that is not light oil, and that definition encompasses everything for a couple of fractions lighter than ULSD to a thick molasses called FFO that used to be used to power ships. From this, it should be clear that no one heavy oil can be used for all the purposes of heavy oil, and so the definition must mean it can be used for one or more purposes of any heavy oil. If you're burning it in a diesel engine, I'd say you were using it for a purpose of heavy oil and thus Tesco's finest meets this criteria. Please note that the regulations say "heavy oil", not "gas oil" - the latter being a better fit for road fuel intended for use in compression-ignition engines.
  • It must be a liquid – not gaseous at a temperature of 15°C and under a pressure of 1013.25 millibars; and
    Check!
  • It must be made from biomass or waste cooking oil;
    Check! Last time I looked, oilseed rape, sunflower, etc plants and their seeds were biomass and vegetable oil is made from these.
  • The total ester content must not be less than 96.5% by weight; and
    Vegetable oil is 100% ester!
  • The sulphur content must not exceed 0.005% by weight or be nil"
    Again, check

So, Tesco's finest meets all the fiscal criteria of biodiesel and should be taxed at the lower rate. As I said earlier, it's only by perverse misinterpretation of the law that HMRC continue to class SVO as "fuel substitute" and so levy the higher rate of duty. Unfortunately none of the small producers have the clout or funding to engage HMRC in court and the large producers stand to lose financially should the law be correctly applied and so aren't inclined to lend a hand.

Edited to add: Of course, all this might not matter because the HMRC proposal covers all biofuels no matter whether they're currently classed as fuel substitutes.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:37 
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Perhaps this LINK can explain the way thinking [in the corridors of power] is going to be moving. We can safely ignore the US, even though its use of food corn to make biofuels is causing large problems elsewhere.

As the use of basic food crops to produce fuels increases, you can expect resistance to that to rise.

It may well be that large amounts of people will starve to death while others drive about on clean, green and cheap bio[don'tmindothersdyingaslongasmycarmoves] fuels.

My considered opinion is that the use of waste oils and waste biomass should be allowed, but the use of food oils and food crops for fuel ought to be stopped. That is the opinion of my E-MP as well, and to my understanding it is the way that the EU will be moving.

If that means more expensive fuels...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:14 
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You appear to be making the classic mistake that cars, rather than people, consume resources. Unfortunately, we have a planet of finite size capable of sustaining a finite maximum population size. Capitalism - which is the ethos of the most powerful authorities on this planet - depends on continued population growth. So until that fundamental element of capitalism is abolished and measures adopted to limit the world human population to something that is actually sustainable, all the posturing and pontification from Eurocrats etc. won't matter one jot. Mark my words, unless something is done to curb the exploding world population, nature will exact its own controls via famine and/or pestilence.

The most efficient use of land is one that has most people living in cities with a minority involved in food/fuel production. While this mode is energy-hungry, it does allow a larger population than would be possible were everyone to live as green as possible. Now that energy required for maximum sustainable population must come from somewhere. We are told that liberating stored energy from fossil fuels is a bad thing and there's nowhere near enough energy available by extracting what the Sun gives us (and no, not the tabloid) in the form of wind energy, wave energy, and solar power. So, we must have a balanced energy strategy, and in the status quo that must include biofuels since biofuels currently represent the most efficient way of harnessing energy from the Sun.

So, not using bio-fuels could reduce the size of world sustainable population because you'd be reducing the amount of energy available to minimize land requirements in terms of acres per capita. Less energy means more acres per capita and so (ironically) diverting land use from fuel to food production could mean increased, not reduced, starvation because, in holistic terms, the same amount of land would be able to support fewer people.

It's all about getting the best balance between food and fuel production.

Just a thought...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:42 
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willcove wrote:
Mark my words, unless something is done to curb the exploding world population, nature will exact its own controls via famine and/or pestilence.


:yesyes: That's it in a nutshell. Some disease will emerge to take full advantage of the vast amounts of human meat. It's just a matter of time if population continues to grow unchecked. Our mastery of nature is severely limited.

I think we have gone far enough along the technology route to be able to deal with an emergent predator, but maybe some (flesh eating?) insect could beat our defences.

Nature abhors imbalance and we're making an ever-greater imbalance.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 17:58 
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http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/global%20wa ... 0myths.asp

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 19:36 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
:yesyes: That's it in a nutshell. Some disease will emerge to take full advantage of the vast amounts of human meat. It's just a matter of time if population continues to grow unchecked. Our mastery of nature is severely limited.

I think we have gone far enough along the technology route to be able to deal with an emergent predator, but maybe some (flesh eating?) insect could beat our defences.

Nature abhors imbalance and we're making an ever-greater imbalance.


If you have a chat with a virologist, you'll be chatting with a person who already knows the "predator" that will ensure lower population.
As for the world population needing to be lower, it does. But it can't. The most productive person is one that is healthy, well fed and under 50. No room for the elderly. The population growth may well slow (although it seems unlikely) but those over 50 may have to accept their life being ended before they die of age or illness. Even the most optimistic scientist sees no future for the human race.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 23:14 
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I'm sure UN population projections show the overall global population flattening out around the middle of this century - albeit at a figure between 9 and 12 billion. Ever since Malthus, the people who have forecast that the resources of the Earth will be inadequate to feed its population have been proved wrong. To my mind it is a very similar species of pessimism to that of the peak-oilers and others who are always eagerly anticipating catastrophic resource depletion.

More people in the world are now overweight than malnourished, which doesn't suggest any imminent sustainability crisis.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 02:36 
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I think about it all the time y'know!.......but!.....that's another story.

:)


Anyone here remember the: "Trollemberg Terror?"..........Nah!


The real culprit though is the "Triffid"...............I see warning signs for them everywhere.........."Heavy Plant Crossing!" Have you seen them too? :lol:


Sure as hell they're going to be our downfall folks........ :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 09:22 
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It LOOKS like the mass extinction has started.....disease rising, fertility falling....and the price of road fuels rising too...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 09:18 
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willcove wrote:
You appear to be making the classic mistake that cars, rather than people, consume resources. Unfortunately, we have a planet of finite size capable of sustaining a finite maximum population size.


That maximum population size is, however, entriely determined by what technology we use.

willcove wrote:
Capitalism - which is the ethos of the most powerful authorities on this planet - depends on continued population growth.


No, it does not. It dosen't even depend on continued economic growth. It does provide an incentive for the increased use of resources (straightforward expansion), the more efficient use of resources (i.e. more efficient factories) and the exploitation of completely new resources (i.e. a shift from coal to nuclear powered electricricity).

willcove wrote:
Mark my words, unless something is done to curb the exploding world population, nature will exact its own controls via famine and/or pestilence.


World population is already starting to flatten out; as people move to cities they have fewer children, since children stop being a free labour force and start becoming expensive.

willcove wrote:
So, we must have a balanced energy strategy, and in the status quo that must include biofuels since biofuels currently represent the most efficient way of harnessing energy from the Sun.


No. A proper energy strategy would avoid fossil fuels on environmental, economic and political grounds. Biofuels would be avoided merely on economic and environmental grounds - they are expensive and environmentally destructive. You can, however, build a near-unlimited amount of nuclear reactors, to electrify the economy generally and directly synthesise liquid fuels to avoid any environmental impacts.

Given sufficient primary energy, any other shortage (water, food, minerals, whatever) can be fixed with reasonably simple technology.

willcove wrote:
It's all about getting the best balance between food and fuel production.


I see it it simpler terms. Within my lifetime there will be around 10 billion people on this planet and they pretty much all want a decent standard of living. Either we can work out how to do this or we can embark on a series of genocidal wars.


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