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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 17:04 
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Bombus touched on something in the condom thread (hoho) thats I've been thinking about recently that really warrents a new thread:

bombus wrote:
It's strange to me that weepej seems to have a pragmatic, down-to-Earth attitude towards most things, but such a blind spot when it comes to speed cameras, disproportionate punishments and other unnecessary restrictions on the motorist. He can see that prohibitive, draconian, anti-libertarian attitudes can have opposite, unintended consequences with things like drug-taking and young people having sex - but he apparently won't even entertain the possibility with motoring.

It's another thing which, I'm afraid, makes me wonder whether there's a fundamental problem with cars governing all this and preventing logic from being applied. I'm not trying to provoke anyone, I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

Interesting topic though Big Tone, and not one that I mean to drag off-course.


Really, what is it with cars? Apart from what bombus mentions, peoples reactions to them as non drivers, drivers themselves behave as very different people. Why do drivers, when slow traffic is moving through a junction, jump into the left/right filter, accelerate then try to cut back in instead of waiting their turn? These people don't stroll into the bank or post office, see a queue and stroll straight to the front- they take their turn at the back.

There are loads of other examples- such as trying to turn right from a side turning through a queue of slow moving traffic where no-one lets you through, or the one-on-one merge where you often meet the hero who shuns good manners to go through 1" from the car in front to take that 1 precious position, or countless slow moving cars at about 10mph passing pedestrians waiting to cross, or the person who "blocks" a safe overtake... it goes on and on... whats it all about? What is it about cars that makes normally civilised, rational people to behave so odd?

If pedestrians behaved as many drivers do we'd see people crashing into each other non-stop and having punch-ups, but we don't, evan in overcrowded streets we all work our way along excercising social grace, yet as the vast majority of drivers are also pedestrians where does this different mindset come in?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 14:24 
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hairyben wrote:
If pedestrians behaved as many drivers do we'd see people crashing into each other non-stop and having punch-ups, but we don't, evan in overcrowded streets we all work our way along excercising social grace, yet as the vast majority of drivers are also pedestrians where does this different mindset come in?


I don't think things are quite as clear cut in the pedestrian manners vs motorist manners comparison. Whilst it's true that the simple act of walking along a busy pavement doesn't tend to result in pedestrian-rage, the same could also be said about driving along a busy stretch of motorway. When the scenarios involve a bit more "urgency" though, it seems to me that pedestrians are just as capable as motorists of doing utterly selfish and in some cases downright dangerous acts in order to give themselves an advantage over the rest of the crowd.

You say that people don't walk into a bank, post office etc. and jump the queue, yet some people do just that, and pay no heed whatsoever to the various utterances - "excuse me", "there's a queue here", "oi you!", "tut tut" etc - coming from the people already in the queue. Granted, I tend not to see this happening so much in places where the queueing system is clearly laid out (e.g. larger banks and post offices), but in shops and smaller places which don't define where to queue, it seems to be coming a more frequent occurrence, especially for self-service type operations (self-serve checkouts, cash machines, car park ticket machines etc) where there isn't someone behind the counter able to deny service to the queue-jumper until they've taken their rightful place in the line.

And have you never travelled by train (or bus, if you're in an area where buses have done away with separate entry/exit doors) during the rush hour? The tube at rush hour is a classic example of self-centred pedestrian activity at its worst, with people in some cases literally shoving other travellers out of the way in order to cram themselves onto the train that's just arrived, whilst the people already on the train trying to get off are left to then try squeezing onto the platform through a dense (I use the term quite deliberately here) mass of people who don't appear to have grasped the point that until people get off the train, there won't be as much space inside for them to get on.

Then there's the "two people approaching a doorway from opposite sides of the door" scenario. Common sense and basic courtesy should be sufficient to resolve the "who goes first" question, but sadly some people seem to think their time is so important that they'll barge through the doorway no matter what effect that has on the other person (e.g. having the door swing closed in their face).


So I'm not sure I entirely agree with your "what is it with cars?" comment, because in my experience it seems that a lot of the bad behaviour we see exhibited by motorists does get exhibited by pedestrians as well. I suppose the main difference is that, in the main, there's less scope for personal injury/damage to property if a pedestrian misbehaves compared to if a motorist were to exhibit the same sort of poor behaviour, so there's less incentive for the person on the receiving end of that behaviour to get sufficiently worked up about it to result in a pedestrian-rage incident.
e.g. If someone doesn't bother looking before changing lanes, forcing me to brake/swerve to avoid a collision, that'll be sure to get my adrenaline pumping and a few choice words thrown in their direction. If someone suddenly steps in front of me without looking when I'm also on foot, then although it's the same basic behaviour it's not going to result in me going into "danger, red alert!" mode.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 14:58 
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I guess you're right about rush hour public transport, it's been a few years since I've had the delight so had forgotten. I remember once attempting to get off a train in birmingham new street carrying two very large bags, I'm stood in the doorway, taking up all the space as a crowd of people decide to try to push straight on.... Now I'm normally quite polite but then it was head down, push through, dragging the bags behind me like a drag net... lots of comments.... Maybe they should have just let me off the damn train then...

As for normal queues etc, I live in camden town which gets very busy on the weekends, heaving pavements with people walking in every different direction, queues for cash machines, banks etc and rarely witness anything in the way of this kind of outright rudeness... as for doors and pavement passing I often find myself in that "both simulataneuosly go for door/both simultaneuosly back off" scenario.

Perhaps the distinction is more between commuting to work and leisure?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 19:14 
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hairyben wrote:
As for normal queues etc, I live in camden town which gets very busy on the weekends, heaving pavements with people walking in every different direction, queues for cash machines, banks etc and rarely witness anything in the way of this kind of outright rudeness...


Haven't been up to Camden for a while, but IME there does seem to be a bit of a difference of behaviour between the really crowded central London area and the not quite so busy outer London 'burbs - it seems to me that when things are really busy then no-one dares to barge in, perhaps because the more people are waiting in the queue the more chance there is that one of them might respond with more than just a verbal rebuke, but as things get a bit quieter the temptation to try sneaking past the small queue outweighs the potential for conflict? Certainly I can't recall having a problem with queues like that in central London, yet out here in Hillingdon/Uxbridge, and in Maidenhead, it's surprisingly and annoyingly frequent.

Nowadays I've learned to stand much closer to the person using the cash machine/ticket machine/checkout than I used to do (even though it goes against both my own opinion as to how much "personal space" we should give other people when they're using such devices, as well as all the advice/pavement markings etc related to debit/credit card safety), because leaving a person-sized gap is just asking for it to be jumped into by someone who hasn't noticed the line of people carrying baskets of shopping/car parking tickets/etc and doesn't then seem to understand basic English phrases like "excuse me, there's a queue here"...


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Perhaps the distinction is more between commuting to work and leisure?


Depends on which way round you want the distinction to be - whilst I find it more difficult to perform some actions as a commuter motorist (e.g. getting out of certain side roads onto busy main roads) than when I'm driving in quieter times, in general I find mixing it up with other like-minded motorists to be quite a lot less stressful than doing a similar length journey on similar roads (or even the exact same roads) outside of the rush hour. Yes, we're all in a hurry to get to/from work, but it somehow feels as if there's a camaraderie, we all know we're in the same boat, and so once you've made it into that stream of traffic things feel a lot easier, there's more give and take when it comes to letting other people in/out or being let in/out yourself. On the other hand, I think the "sunday driver" stereotype is very much based on reality, although sadly these days it's not just Sundays where you need to take care, it seems like the standard of driving takes a nosedive just after the Friday evening rush-hour winds down, and doesn't pick up again until Monday morning. It's only when the roads quieten down that I really go on the defensive against red-light runners, lane-changers, side-road puller-outers etc. - I do still see this behaviour during the rush hour as well, but compared to the number of vehicles on the road in total it's not a big problem then, whereas in the off-peak times it seems to happen more often despite there being fewer vehicles around...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 19:41 
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Twister wrote:
Haven't been up to Camden for a while, but IME there does seem to be a bit of a difference of behaviour between the really crowded central London area and the not quite so busy outer London 'burbs - it seems to me that when things are really busy then no-one dares to barge in, perhaps because the more people are waiting in the queue the more chance there is that one of them might respond with more than just a verbal rebuke, but as things get a bit quieter the temptation to try sneaking past the small queue outweighs the potential for conflict? Certainly I can't recall having a problem with queues like that in central London, yet out here in Hillingdon/Uxbridge, and in Maidenhead, it's surprisingly and annoyingly frequent.


hmm, maybe it's being in the midde of a big city, where the person you offend may frown at you or may stab you. Coming from a small town myself I've found people have less patience here and are more "on-guard", wheras where I grew up people have a little more time if you have or make a problem. Someone pushing in front of me tends to be something I'd notice, especially if it happened frequently.

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Depends on which way round you want the distinction to be - whilst I find it more difficult to perform some actions as a commuter motorist (e.g. getting out of certain side roads onto busy main roads) than when I'm driving in quieter times, in general I find mixing it up with other like-minded motorists to be quite a lot less stressful than doing a similar length journey on similar roads (or even the exact same roads) outside of the rush hour. Yes, we're all in a hurry to get to/from work, but it somehow feels as if there's a camaraderie, we all know we're in the same boat, and so once you've made it into that stream of traffic things feel a lot easier, there's more give and take when it comes to letting other people in/out or being let in/out yourself. On the other hand, I think the "sunday driver" stereotype is very much based on reality, although sadly these days it's not just Sundays where you need to take care, it seems like the standard of driving takes a nosedive just after the Friday evening rush-hour winds down, and doesn't pick up again until Monday morning. It's only when the roads quieten down that I really go on the defensive against red-light runners, lane-changers, side-road puller-outers etc. - I do still see this behaviour during the rush hour as well, but compared to the number of vehicles on the road in total it's not a big problem then, whereas in the off-peak times it seems to happen more often despite there being fewer vehicles around...


Sunday drivers aside, as they seem to be driving with indifference to other road users rather in spite of them, I had it the other way round- ie people strolling around camden on a sunday afternoon have all the time in the world to complete their shopping trip, whereas people driving/bussing etc to work are more likely to be stressed out/late/in a hurry/tired and irritable etc

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