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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 02:40 
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http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece

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Toyota Prius proves a gas guzzler in a race with the BMW 520d
The Toyota hybrid is hailed as an eco-paragon, so how does it fare against a big BMW? To find out our correspondents go on a run to Geneva


The Prius, like the iPod, is more than a piece of clever technology. It symbolises something bigger – a responsible attitude, a healthier way of living. Toyota has sold more than a million examples of the car since launching it in 1997 and it has attracted a worldwide following led by Leonardo DiCaprio, Cameron Diaz and much of the rest of Hollywood.

It’s classified by the American government as the “most fuel-efficient car sold in the US” and this seal of official approval is reflected in a special status that the Prius and other hybrids enjoy over conventionally powered cars.

For example, you can drive a Prius in American “high occupancy vehicle lanes” – designed for vehicles carrying passengers – even if there’s nobody else in the car. In Britain the Prius has had a similar boost. You can enter the central London congestion zone without paying the usual £8-a-day charge. For road tax purposes it’s classed as an “alternative fuel vehicle” so you pay less tax than you would for a conventional car that produces the same emissions. Road tax is just £15 a year and in last Wednesday’s budget, Alistair Darling, the chancellor, renewed his commitment to preferential treatment for hybrids. Plus, if you drive a Prius as a company car it enjoys a 3% discount (until April) compared with the tax on other cars producing identical amounts of carbon dioxide.

But are transport and tax planners – here and in the US – being fair to the people who drive conventional cars? The official fuel consumption figure for the Prius – supplied by Toyota itself – is 65.7mpg in mixed motoring. That’s a claim not supported by many of the letter writers to The Sunday Times who say they get nearer to 50mpg. If our readers are right and the official figure is wrong it has important implications, not least of which is that people driving frugal diesels are getting a raw deal.

To find out we set a challenge: to drive a Prius to Geneva using motorways and town driving. The direct route is 460 miles but we drove almost 100 miles further to give the Prius the advantage of running in urban conditions where its petrol-electric drivetrain comes into its own.

We took along a conventionally powered car – a diesel BMW executive saloon – for comparison and drove both cars an identical number of miles (545).

BMW 520d: driven by Nicholas Rufford

The BMW doesn’t have the external look of a green car and you don’t get the same self-righteous glow when you are driving it. There’s no hybrid badge on the back; in fact, because it’s the entry level car of the 5-series many buyers opt for “badge delete” so they don’t show other motorists they went for the cheapest option at £27,190.

But it does have a few tricks up its sleeve to conserve fuel. Efficient Dynamics, as BMW refers to its fuel-saving technology, is a term coined by Bavarian marketing men for refinements that taken on their own are nothing spectacular but together improve fuel economy. Rather than Toyota’s big idea – a radically different system of powering a car using a petrol-electric drivetrain – BMW has sunk its research effort into lots of less radical things.

The most important of these is the new four-cylinder engine. It’s available in the 3-series but here it’s perfectly at home in the bigger 5-series saloon where it generates a surprising 177bhp. Surprising because it’s only 1995cc and it sips fuel. Combined fuel consumption is – officially – 55.4mpg and emissions are 136g/km, which puts it into tax band C. That’s respectable for its size, especially when you consider that 13 cabinet ministers are driven in cars with tax band F – the second highest bracket – and one, we don’t know who, has a band G car.

Various other features of the new BMW contribute to its frugality. It’s got better aerodynamics to reduce drag; low rolling resistance tyres; and a dashboard gauge that gives you a continuous fuel consumption readout so you know when to change gear.

So how does it drive? Well, much like any other executive saloon, actually. Its six-speed manual transmission needs quite a lot of work but if you are concerned about fuel economy then it’s a small price to pay for the extra 5mpg that it gains over the automatic version.

The 520d is not startlingly quick, but it will reach 62mph in 8.3sec. As for the claimed top speed of 144mph, I didn’t get the chance to test it to its limit but I think it would have struggled to reach that. Nonetheless, it cruised happily at the French autoroute limit (dry conditions) of 78mph towards the champagne region.

As I did so, I noted with slight satisfaction that Jason was having difficulty keeping up, so I cut my speed. Had I been really serious about saving fuel I could have also switched off the air-conditioning and the stereo but I was more concerned about making this a real-world test.

Stuck in rush-hour traffic in Reims, fuel consumption dropped to an average of about 40mpg – still not bad when you consider the size of the car. BMW has fitted a diesel particulate filter, enabling the car to meet ever more stringent European Union limits on emissions. Another feature designed to cut running costs is the brake regenerative system – similar to that in the Prius – which recovers energy from braking to recharge the battery and help power the electrical systems. To what extent this is a genuinely eco-friendly feature and how much a conscience salver is impossible to tell when you’re driving.

But you can’t argue with the end result. Approaching Switzerland I felt confident of beating Jason. The computer was telling me that, for the journey as a whole, I had averaged more than 50mpg. The test had taken us along just over 200 miles of autoroute, about 200 miles of B roads, including winding ascents and descents in Switzerland, and 100 miles of urban driving.

Before we set off, Jason and I filled our tanks to the brim. At the end of the journey, at a filling station in Geneva, we filled them again to find out how much fuel we’d used. The BMW had done the journey on 49 litres (just over two-thirds of a 70-litre tank). Jason had . . . well, I’ll let him tell his own story.

Toyota Prius: driven by Jason Dawe

The Prius is not a car you can easily get excited about, at least on a purely visual basis. But this test was not about kerb appeal, it was about pump avoidance. The Prius was designed with a straightforward goal in mind – to create a five-seat family hatchback that was as good on fuel as a 2+2 supermini. Straightforward aims are often notoriously difficult to achieve.

Toyota’s big idea was to use hybrid power. In other words, two forms of propulsion. The bulk of that power comes from a 1.5 litre petrol engine producing just 77bhp. That kind of power may be able to keep the Prius cruising along but is hardly enough to ensure decent acceleration. So added to that comes a battery-powered electric motor generating the equivalent of a further 67bhp and a thumping great 295 lb ft of torque.

There’s no need to plug the Prius into an electric socket to keep the batteries topped up as this is done every time the car brakes, and there is trickle charging by the petrol engine while driving normally. The result of lumping together these two sources of power is a car that can reach 62mph from standstill in less than 11sec and reach 106mph flat out, hardly dragstrip quick and slower than the BMW, but still respectable.

Toyota was obsessive about saving weight in the Prius; at just 2,921lb it is 573lb lighter than the BMW 520d, surely a factor that will pay dividends at the pumps.

Clever power and a light kerb weight stand the Prius in good stead but it’s the car’s incredibly low drag coefficient that may just tip the scales in my favour when it comes to long motorway stretches at higher speeds. As slippery as a campaign manager discussing political donations, the Prius should take less energy than the BMW to maintain a constant cruising speed.

No sooner had we left the offices of The Sunday Times in London than my eyes locked limpet-like on the trip computer readout that tells you how many mpg you are achieving. This was to become my obsession over the next 545 miles as I battled to nudge the Prius into performing somewhere close to Toyota’s claim of 65mpg-plus motoring.

By the time we reached the Channel tunnel the display revealed that I had averaged 55mpg. Hopefully things would improve on the long, uninterrupted roads in France. They didn’t – despite the fact that I didn’t use the air-conditioning and avoided turning on the stereo in an effort to conserve power.

To break the boredom of constantly looking at the trip computer I pressed the throttle into the carpet for a few seconds, but seeing the fuel consumption suddenly dip to less than 10mpg I backed off. When we stopped in Reims neither Nick nor I was willing to declare our average fuel economy figures. I interpreted his reticence as a sign of my upcoming victory.

The next day it became clear my Prius did not like motorways, at least not at 75mph into a headwind. My trip meter informed me I was now averaging about 45mpg; the Prius was not going to make it to Geneva on just one tank.

I took the precaution of buying a 10-litre can and filling it with petrol. Sure enough, the dashboard soon informed me the fuel tank was empty, the petrol engine stopped and for two surreal miles I coasted along on battery power. Only when I approached a long steep uphill stretch did I finally drift to a halt. As I filled the tank I consoled myself with my last chocolate bar.

Coasting down the mountain into Geneva my Prius averaged 99.9mpg for a full 10 minutes. It was the highlight of my journey and improved my overall average fuel economy by a full 2mpg. But it was not enough. For all my defensive driving, slippery bodywork and hybrid technology, my average fuel consumption was 48.1mpg. I’d lost to a Beemer and I was disappointed; I had never driven so slowly or carefully for so long in my life. I’m considering buying a V8 Range Rover and opening my own oil well in protest.

Vital Statistics

Model BMW 520d SE
Engine 1995cc, four cylinders
Power 177bhp @ 4000rpm
Torque 258 lb ft @ 1750rpm
Transmission Six-speed manual
Official fuel/CO2 55.4mpg / 136g/km
Performance 0-62mph: 8.3sec
Top speed 144mph
Road tax band C (£115)
Price £27,190
Fuel used on test 10.84 gallons (50.3mpg)
Fuel cost £54.19 (diesel)
Model Toyota Prius T Spirit
Engine 1497cc, four cylinders
Electric motor 50kW/67bhp
Power 77bhp @ 5000rpm
Torque 295 lb ft (motor) 85 lb ft (engine)
Transmission CVT automatic
Official fuel/CO2 65.7mpg / 104g/km
Performance 0-62mph: 10.9sec
Top speed 106mph
Road tax band B (£15, alternative fuel)
Price £20,677
Fuel used on test 11.34 gallons (48.1mpg)
Fuel cost £54.64 (petrol)


TLDR: On a 550 mile run from Paris to Geneva taking in urban and motorway settings, the BMW 5-series, typically associated with obnoxious planet-destroying businessmen and various other forms of douchery managed a higher MPG than the Prius, typically associated with eco-warrior sandal-wearing lentil-munchers who enjoy the smell of their own farts.

I know the whole "Prius isn't that economical really" thing has been done before, but usually it loses to some tiny, tinny cheap crappy little hatchback that can barely contain 4 people. To lose to a car that's bigger, heavier, faster and associated with horrible horrible capitalists has to really hurt.

Good job BMW. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 09:50 
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If you don't use the brakes on the Prius its just a normal car.

Be interesting to see comparions of round town driving, but I bet they won't do that.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:33 
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weepej wrote:
If you don't use the brakes on the Prius its just a normal car.

Be interesting to see comparions of round town driving, but I bet they won't do that.


A friend of mine has just bought a 1.4 diesel Fiesta and I have seen the economy gauge with my own eyes and it is averaging over 66 mpg. This is mostly in town. The Fiesta is a very small car, but it is also thousands cheaper than the Prius.

Driving for economy is all about not using the brakes and driving smoothly. I don't doubt that Toyota have done a good job of building the Prius and it will probably just run and run without going wrong just like a Corolla, but if they were as economical as they are made out to be, why don't we see them as mini cabs? Surely the ideal minicab?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 14:42 
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weepej wrote:
If you don't use the brakes on the Prius its just a normal car.

Be interesting to see comparions of round town driving, but I bet they won't do that.


No it isn't. If you threw away the electric bit it would be a grossly underpowered "normal" car. It was built with an undersized engine to take advantage of the electrc "half" of its drivetrain. The petrol engine also charges the batteries when it is running at low efficiency (light throttle openings) to make the engine work in a more efficient region of its power band.

I agree that in heavy enough traffic, the Prius would clearly be better than the Beamer - as would a moped. So what's your point? If you pick a specific enough set of conditions, you'd probably find an old V12 Jag was better than a Prius!

This article has voiced something that many people have known (or felt) for a long time - in typical driving conditions (as opposed to the EC drive cycle) the Prius ain't that good at saving the planet!

Does that make me hate the Prius? NO! I think it will have provided valuable data to Toyota for a second generation of hybrids that will probably be much better. We also need to remember that it was developed largely with the American market in mind and they have something against diesels - which is a pity because if it's global CO2 reduction you're after, there are VERY rich and easy pickings to be had in the US of A using conventional technology, never mind hybrids!

I don't think it will be long before there are diesel-electric hybrids on the market - and these ought to be MUCH better simply because diesels are much more economical to start with - especially under the conditions where the Prius uses its petrol engine!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 14:49 
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weepej wrote:
If you don't use the brakes on the Prius its just a normal car.

Be interesting to see comparions of round town driving, but I bet they won't do that.


If you just want a town car, then there are better (smaller, more fuel efficient, lower CO2 emissions) alternatives (*) than the Prius. And as this article suggest, if you want an all-round car there are better alternatives too...

So other than being a public beta test of the hybrid drivetrain, which might possibly lead to better performance/reliability/reduced costs/etc in the next generations of such vehicles, it seems to me that the only thing going for the Prius is that it's an easily recognisable badge of alleged eco-friendliness - a car that the sandalistas can drive with a smug grin on their face as they drive along content in the misguided impression that they're doing more for the environment than all those evil fuel-burning fume-belching drivers in their planet-killing motorised death boxes.


* According to the VCA Car Fuel Data database:

Toyota Prius: Urban 56.5mpg, CO2 104g/km

Mini Cooper Diesel: Urban 60.1mpg, CO2 104g/km
Seat Ibiza 1.4TDI: Urban 57.6mpg, CO2 99g/km
VW Polo 1.4TDI: Urban 57.6mpg, CO2 99g/km

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 02:54 
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Mole wrote:

I agree that in heavy enough traffic, the Prius would clearly be better than the Beamer - as would a moped. So what's your point? If you pick a specific enough set of conditions, you'd probably find an old V12 Jag was better than a Prius!


A V12 Jag's excess power and torque if harnessed could probably act as a generator for 10 Gwizz's, without the driver noticing. :lol:

It all depends what is wanted from a/the car, my 4l jag is showing 16.5mpg at present, this is a figure for the rush hour crawls.
I'm perfectly happy to accept this figure, as if I've got to be in a slow moving traffic for an hour (or more) of my life each day I want to be as comfortable as possible, leather armchair, nice stereo, quiet interior, good heating and ventilation, basically as close a replication of my living room as possible.
If the journey took the 10-15 minutes it should, I may choose to drive a fiesta.

Here's a simple solution to help prevent global warming, It won't cure the CO2 and Methane 'problem' but it would help, paint everything white, roads, carparks, roofs, in fact any part of the built environment, to reflect the suns energy rather than absorb it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 19:44 
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My Puglet 106 deezil is 12 years old and just passed it's MOT again. I don't hang around but still manage to get around 55 mpg.
My point here is that for a Pious to be as eco friendly as claimed (its total enviromental debt including manufacture and disposal) every one will have to last 16 years. I really cannot see ANYONE buying one of these and keeping it for 16 years.
I guess there's the second hand market, but as a vehicles condition deteriorates and these probably being largely too complex for the home mechanic I just can't for the life of me see there being more than a small handful surviving that long.
A future "Practical Classic"? I think not.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 22:57 
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Clarkson ( circa04 ,repeated on freeview ) jst did his bit on the Pious - 45 mpg (best he could get ).
I also drivre a small supermini- 1500 cc diesel - motorway ( In instant ban territory gets about 40 MPG ) ---on A class roads at 60 I get figures from 49 mpg to 125mpg +

So much for the Pios Prius.(BTW - MINE COST ABOUT £9K new )

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:28 
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weepej wrote:
If you don't use the brakes on the Prius its just a normal car.

Be interesting to see comparions of round town driving, but I bet they won't do that.


:D

I always knew my car was extraordinary! It has brakes! That I use! It's a wonderful feature.

Also, it's pointless testing a hybrid car against one that burns petrol / diesel in a purely urban environment as it's unrepresentative of real-world driving conditions; even urbanites will need to venture outside 20mph zones occasionally. I suppose it would be like testing a G-Wiz against a VW Passat 2.0TDi on motorways only.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:07 
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Maaarrghk! wrote:
My Puglet 106 deezil is 12 years old and just passed it's MOT again. I don't hang around but still manage to get around 55 mpg.
My point here is that for a Pious to be as eco friendly as claimed (its total enviromental debt including manufacture and disposal) every one will have to last 16 years. I really cannot see ANYONE buying one of these and keeping it for 16 years.
I guess there's the second hand market, but as a vehicles condition deteriorates and these probably being largely too complex for the home mechanic I just can't for the life of me see there being more than a small handful surviving that long.
A future "Practical Classic"? I think not.


The 106 isn't ideal for everyone, but your not going to get much better for the environment than that.

It would be more usefull (if I gave a damn anymore) to know the whole life enviromental cost of the car. I would like a new car, doing 60 to the gallon would be nice too, but my nearly 10 year old car just needs a service. It won't get 60mpg ever, but surely it's better to keep maintaining and running the old one that buying a new one?

Why not encourage us to make do and mend? Take VAT off maintainance??? There must be loads of servicable cars scrapped not because they are beyond repair, but because the new CAT costs the same as a newer car.


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adam.L wrote:
There must be loads of servicable cars scrapped not because they are beyond repair, but because the new CAT costs the same as a newer car.



CATs are very low priced, they only become high-priced when they are attached to the pipes at either end and then sold as FORD cats or BMW cats etc...

You can buy your own....they only make about 5 different types !...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 15:15 
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It's not usually the cat that dies either, usually the exhaust section with the cat in it rots somewhere (thanks to all the water the cat produces, no doubt). Depending on where it rotted you might just be able to weld it back together, there are also companies that will build a new exhaust around your old cat (Hayward and Scott are quite good)

But for the average person who just takes their car to kwik fit or whatever, yeah, the cost of a new centre section is indeed often more than buying a new banger. This is certainly true for my old Volvo.


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The Government's poorly thought out Road Tax proposals in the Budget will have the opposite effect to Adam's proposal. Oldish cars will become uneconomic to run but not because they are defective in any way.

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But older performance cars (pre 2001) will suddenly become more economic to run. I hear Feb 01 Audi S4s have gained a grand or so in value as a result of this budget.

Newer performance cars with more efficient engines and lower emissions are suddenly less economic to run and less desirable.

I think my Scooby is worth preserving for as long as possible :)


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adam.L wrote:
It would be more usefull (if I gave a damn anymore) to know the whole life enviromental cost of the car. I would like a new car, doing 60 to the gallon would be nice too, but my nearly 10 year old car just needs a service. It won't get 60mpg ever, but surely it's better to keep maintaining and running the old one that buying a new one?


The yanks do something called the "dust to dust" measure, ie the total envirmental impact over a cars lifespan, from mining & processing raw materials, taking into account it's life expectancy, mpg, to scrapping it. According to which, the prius produces more pollution per mile than a hummer.

Another thing I've noticed about hybrids is they're all bought by the well heeled, who typically have no concept of what "conserving" actually is and will dump them in next to no time for a better one. (In fact, a customer of mine sold his italian sports car, bought a new lexus hybrid SUV, then sold it within a couple on months to buy another new £100k+ italian sports car)

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Yes, I remember seeing the "Hummer vs. Prius" thing too. It struck me as a load of cobblers though. If I remember rightly, it only worked because the assumption was made that the average Hummer would do 350,000 miles in its lifetime. These things tend to get based on so many assumptions that one ends up feeling it would just save everyone a load of trouble if they "assumed" the answer as well!


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hairyben wrote:
According to which, the prius produces more pollution per mile than a hummer.


You mean the study that assumed a Prius would be thrown away after 100,000 miles, whereas a Hummer would be thrown away after 300,000 miles (and other studies that make equally ridiculous assertions to "prove" their proint)?

http://tinyurl.com/2ceykh

(edit, oops, sorry mole, didn't see your post before I responded)


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weepej wrote:
hairyben wrote:
According to which, the prius produces more pollution per mile than a hummer.


You mean the study that assumed a Prius would be thrown away after 100,000 miles, whereas a Hummer would be thrown away after 300,000 miles (and other studies that make equally ridiculous assertions to "prove" their proint)?

http://tinyurl.com/2ceykh

(edit, oops, sorry mole, didn't see your post before I responded)



Like the green party taking free carparking into account when working the cost of motoring into account ?


Quote:
By Chris Demorro

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.



The hummer is a vehicle designed for the military....rather like a land rover with attitude. Land rovers tend to drift to way over 500,000 miles before being repainted for another few hundred thousand.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:17 
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South Park Season 10 Episode 2 : Smug Alert

While there's no doubt in my mind that hybrids will improve, I'm always unnerved when society does the bulk of the R&D, and is forced to pay for it as well. I, for one, will NEVER even consider buying a Hybrid until:
1) ALL the hybrid price and operation /maintenance costs premiums disappear
2) I can plug it in
3) I don't have to suffer other hybrid owners 'smug' emissions
4) I can't tell the difference between driving it and driving a normal car (just because I'm driving a hybrid doesn't mean 85 MpH should require more than 15 secs of WOT)

I will admit, however, that some of the hybrid lessons are being applied to non-hybrid vehicles, like regenerative braking.

Compared to the relative silliness of hybrids, SUVs are ridiculous, and Hummers border on insane.

The Hummer H1 is now for the military only. During the few years that it was available to the public, I remember being apalled, knowing that there was less than a 5% chance that the vehicle was utilizing its full design capabilites, and a 95% chance that it was serving the same purpose that a Mercedes Benz AMG or BMW M usually serves:
Gluttonously conspicuous display of excessive wealth; self-important esteem among strangers, lacking whimsy, elegance, or any sort of class, plus several heaping tablespoons of false ruggedness.

The Hummers H2 and H3 are for the masses / duh masses / dumb @$$es.
The H2 starts at fifty seven thousand US Dollars - as does the Cadillac Escalade. I can't find EPA Fuel Consumption Statistics for this vehicle because it weighs too much to be tested. However, it is based on - yet heavier than - the Cadillac Escalade 4WD, which gets 12 MpG City, 18 MpG Highway; the H2, weighing more and having an even worse cD and Drag Area, would score even worse, if it was light enough to be tested.

The H3 starts at $31,000. It gets 13 MpG City, and 16 - 18 MpG Highway.
These lesser Hummers are for the typical American SUV pretender who wish to exude that uniquely American form of automotive quasi-machismo at various shopping centers while bragging / complaining about its almost supremely inferior real world MpG while even the most woefully underpowered cars accelerate away from them at every redlight.

Neither is available with a diesel in the States. If it wasn't for the SUV craze of the mid nineties - which killed the Caprice Classic - Hummer may never have become a public brand. I hope and pray that the brand either goes totally Diesel, or dies very soon.

(By the way, my present car is a 2 metric ton Cheavy Caprice Classic Estate with a 5.7L Corvette V8 which scores 15 MpG City, 23 MpG Highway EPA. My last four cars were all Chevy Caprice Classic Saloons with 5.7L 'vette V8s. I've yet to better 21 MpG on the highway because I can't keep my foot out of it.)

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:53 
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The Rush wrote:
2) I can plug it in
Whilst I'm no fan of the Prius, I do have to pick up on this point. The Prius's sold in Japan can be plugged in. They removed this feature to avoid scaring off Americans who remember some previous disastrous electric cars (and possible to avoid reminding us Brits of the Sinclair C5). It's also possible to set it to electric drive only, which is handy for short trips

People are starting to import the extra kit needed and fit it to their US and European Prius'

However, since we're still relying on coal and gas for most of our electricity (One thing I agreed with Bliar on was the need for nuclear power) it's not really going to make much difference, it just moves the CO2 emissions further away from your own property.

(And yes, I recommend that South Park episode, even if you don't normally watch the show, it is hilarious)


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