Safe Speed Forums

A big well (not) done to Mr Booker of the traffic enforcement team of the Warwickshire Police.
Nice to see you’re working to cause greater road danger by hiding the Gatso Camera behind the tree on the A5 where the A444 crosses it. Even better that it is set up to trigger Hgv’s going over 40 mph. How safe is a car following a truck at a safe speed of 50mph when for apparently no reason it slams it’s brakes on and comes down to 40mph. The two Truveio cameras that are on the A46 Alcaster road, that are covered by trees in the summer. Also the new camera that they have installed after the school in Nuneaton (what a joke). Warwickshire Police should be ashamed of how they run there camera team and Mr Booker should resign from his position of manger. Also they use mechanical signers on there NIP’s. And are so rude they will not answer their mail. John Burbick should also resign from the position of chief constable

I have to agree with you on the position of those cameras in Nuneaton. The one at the A5/A444 junction is obscene. I was following a coach past that camera last week at a steady 50mph (NSL road), the camera flashed as the coach passed and he slammed his brakes on. I don't think you can actually argue with having a camera at that junction as it does have a very bad history of accidents, but the junction itself is appalling. I'm sure it could be made 100% safer with a sensible engineering solution (I think a roundabout there would be ideal).

The camera outside Etone School has been set at a ridiculously low speed, a friend of mine got a NIP for driving past at 32mph and another got pinged at 34mph. Asking the locals in that area (and the several police officers I know) there has only been one fatal on that stretch of road in the last 10 years and that was a biker going far too fast for the corner and impaling himself on the safety barrier (and the camera is forward facing so wouldn't have caught the biker anyway).

On a related point, I've noticed that the road markings are rather unusual at that camera. Instead of the series of evenly spaced dashes leading up to (or away from) the camera, there are just three, tightly spaced lines (probably an inch wide and three inches apart) stretching across the entire width of the road. Has anyone seen this configuration before? And, if so, is it legal?

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If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

Sounds like a Truvelo - do the lines and camera housing look anything like the ones illustrated on the Truvelo home page?

Yep that's the one. It's the first one I've seen, none of the other speed cameras that have been installed in the Nuneaton area are like it. Why would they install different types of cameras in different areas?

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If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

Re: the Gatso hidden behind the tree on the A5/A444.

I have polled over 50 drivers (HGV) where I work and have found that
Over 90% say that they look in their mirrors when passing the A5 camera
And the markings on the road
Therefor they are not looking at the road ahead with the dangerous junction.
THIS DANGEROUS GATSO SHOULD BE REMOVED BY THE POLICE.

Looking in the mirror is bad enough when it's unecessary, but looking at the speedo is far worse. The problem with the speedo is that it's close and yo have to refocus to read it, and then refocus back to the scene ahead. This process appears to take around 1 second.

See: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedo.html

The stuff in the mirror is far enough away that refocussing isn't required - you don't focus on the mirror itself, rather you focus on the objects reflected by the mirror.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

At least. If your eyes are also having to adjust to significantly different levels of lighting between the outside world and the instrument panel, you can easily be looking away from the road for several seconds just to do a single speedo check.

Just found this on the ABD website:



As I said before, this very nearly happened to me a few weeks ago.

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If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

I've done some simple tests that show that on flat, straight roads, once a steady speed is established (in my case 60 mph), steady speed can be easily be maintained without further reference to the speedo within +/- 2.5 mph for around 30 seconds. I don't know whether that is typical, but that is what I have found.

I think the human brain is not very good at perceiving changes of speed. Without reference to the speedo, I think the main input to perceiving change is engine sound. It may be vibration or even wind noise, but it is certainly not reference to objects around you as you pass them.

I have built an oscillator with my kid's electronic kit, and my tests show that the human brain (my brain at least!) is capable of noticing very slight changes in audible frequency. It terms of musical scales, the brain can easily hear a signal drift by a 1/10th of a note. I suspect that much smaller frequency increments (e.g. 1/100th of a note) can be detected over a short period of a minute or so.

I therefore think that some audible signal could be used to help a driver establish a steady speed. It would then only be necessary to set your speed on entry into a limit area, and the tone (which would be derived from your speed) would help you notice if your speed creeps up.

Actually, speed creep is one of the reasons I can sympathise with some people who get pinged. On some stretches, especially hills, you have to consciously adapt to driving within the limit by carefully estimating your speed. The trick is to glance at your speedo only when it is safe to (which is quite often, actually). If you don't accelerate too much, tracking your speed like this is easy, but you have to adapt to the method.

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I stole this .sig

You're talking about "musical ears" on the scale from tone deaf to perfect pitch. Individuals vary wildly between the two extremes. Someone with perfect pitch can reproduce a learned note at any time without reference to any standard.

Someone who is tone deaf may not recognise pitch drift at all, and even if pitch drift is recognised, may not be able to determine the direction.

Personally I'm about 20% away from tone deaf at the bad end of the scale.

I CANNOT set or maintain a speed by reference to engine note.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Probably depends a lot on individual experience and how well you're used to the car. I'd guess I'd manage about the same, but in an unfamiliar vehicle I think I'd be noticeably less accurate.

Not so sure about that. In a car you know well the engine note might well become a kind of proxy for estimating what the speedo is saying, but without this you can still tell a lot visually. This might be more evaluative though. For example, the speed at which you pass street furniture or lane markings might not be enough for a driver to estimate speed with much precision, but it might to be enough to let him know if he's going too fast. That is an unsafe speed, rather than merely an illegal one.

Interesting. So do you think the improved soundproofing on modern cars is taking away a useful indicator for drivers?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Ooo I just noticed this! You're MILES out! The visual information is extremely accurate and useful. Just look at cars on a race track - they adjust speed to corner right on the limit of grip with absolutely no reference to any speed indicating device. In F1 it's common to see them brake down from 200mph or so to 40mph or so for a corner or chicane - they all brake about the same and they all corner at the same speed within a couple of mph.

You might think this has nothing to do with road driving, but ask anyone who's driven with a busted speedo. It makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL unless you have to worry about a speed camera!

Try covering over your own speedo - you'll still be able to set an appropriate speed in all circumstances - except when strict speed limit compliance is demanded.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Indeed. So powerful is the visual information being continually received as we drive along that it's very easy to dismiss it as unimportant until we're faced with a scenario where this power is demonstrated to us in a way which leaves no doubt.

My favourite such scenario is driving along the A40 past RAF Northolt. This part of the A40 is a NSL dual carriageway, and is fully lit. Before and after Northolt, the light poles are of typical height and spacing, but in the immediate vicinity of the base, the poles are much shorter - presumably due to the close proximity of the base runways - and (I believe) more closely spaced. When driving along this stretch of road at a steady speed, the sudden transition from tall to short light poles gives the immediate impression that your speed has increased by a significant amount. There's no other feedback to suggest a change in speed - no wavering of the speedo needle, no change in engine tone, tyre or wind noise. Yet you genuinely do feel as if you're travelling faster.

Of course, in this particular example, the visual information given to you as you pass Northolt is anything but accurate, but that's only because we're not used to routinely driving on NSL dual carriageways lit by short light poles. On the other hand, as soon as you've passed the base and the light poles return to their normal height/spacing, it becomes pretty easy to once again judge your speed.

So I'd agree with Paul in that, given consistent visual stimuli, the information it provides is accurate, but I'd also add the caveat that you can't always rely on it. With the Northolt example, it's obvious that the poles are shorter and that the apparent speed increase is just an illusion, but if the change in height/spacing were more subtle then it could result in someones speed slowly drifting up/down without them realising, simply because the visual feedback they were getting was changing in a similarly slow manner.

I'm not knocking it as extra information, and I am only referring to myself. Also I'm talking about perceiving changes to speed, not estimating a steady speed. I can set the speed and cruise along in the dark as well as the light, and more or less keep it on the button for a longggg way. It makes it much easier if you are on a flat straight road because, if you don’t move your foot, even open-loop you’ll stay more or less the same. Maybe other people are different in this respect.

Perhaps we need talking speedos (!) that tell you your speed and whether you happen to be legal at the present time.

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I stole this .sig

Just to make sure I understand what you are saying:

When you slow down for a bend, if you feel, by reference to objects around you as you pass them, that you haven't slowed down enough to get round the bend safely:

Without reference to the speedo you would have a nesty habit of coming off?!

Personally I have never checked my speedo when negotiating a bend.

Does anyone else here have to check one in order to do so?

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http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk

Dead slow - see my post on "A5 REDGATE (JCN OF A5) dated oct 25 2004 - i queeried the speed over this junction and mentioned that Warks had been found to be using a reduced limit for hgv
Serge - that camera you mention outside Etone school( forward facing) is a Truvello with a grid buried in the road and the usual 3 lines associated with a truvello.
Dont know why they used a truvello cos all the rest in nuneaton are gatso s
Possibly that camera is there using the school as an excuse because that portion of the road was subject to excessive speed