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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 03:28 
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The Guardian

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Big Brother is watching: surveillance box to track drivers is backed

• Privacy row brewing over surveillance on the road
• Box could reduce accidents, pollution and congestion

The government is backing a project to install a "communication box" in new cars to track the whereabouts of drivers anywhere in Europe, the Guardian can reveal.

Under the proposals, vehicles will emit a constant "heartbeat" revealing their location, speed and direction of travel. The EU officials behind the plan believe it will significantly reduce road accidents, congestion and carbon emissions. A consortium of manufacturers has indicated that the router device could be installed in all new cars as early as 2013.

However, privacy campaigners warned last night that a European-wide car tracking system would create a system of almost total road surveillance.

Details of the Cooperative Vehicle-Infrastructure Systems (CVIS) project, a £36m EU initiative backed by car manufacturers and the telecoms industry, will be unveiled this year.

But the Guardian has been given unpublished documents detailing the proposed uses for the system. They confirm that it could have profound implications for privacy, enabling cars to be tracked to within a metre - more accurate than current satellite navigation technologies.

The European commission has asked governments to reserve radio frequency on the 5.9 Gigahertz band, essentially setting aside a universal frequency on which CVIS technology will work.

The Department for Transport said there were no current plans to make installation of the technology mandatory. However, those involved in the project describe the UK as one of the main "state backers". Transport for London has also hosted trials of the technology.

The European Data Protection Supervisor will make a formal announcement on the privacy implications of CVIS technology soon. But in a recent speech he said the technology would have "great impact on rights to privacy and data".

Paul Kompfner, who manages CVIS, said governments would have to decide on privacy safeguards. "It is time to start a debate ... so the right legal and privacy framework can be put in place before the technology reaches the market," he said.

The system allows cars to "talk" to one another and the road. A "communication box" behind the dashboard ensures that cars send out "heartbeat" messages every 500 milliseconds through mobile cellular and wireless local area networks, short-range microwave or infrared.

The messages will be picked up by other cars in the vicinity, allowing vehicles to warn each other if they are forced to break hard or swerve to avoid a hazard.

The data is also picked up by detectors at the roadside and mobile phone towers. That enables the road to communicate with cars, allowing for "intelligent" traffic lights to turn green when cars are approaching or gantries on the motorway to announce changes to speed limits.

Data will also be sent to "control centres" that manage traffic, enabling a vastly improved system to monitor and even direct vehicles.

"A traffic controller will know where all vehicles are and even where they are headed," said Kompfner. "That would result in a significant reduction in congestion and replace the need for cameras."

Although the plan is to initially introduce the technology on a voluntary basis, Kompfner conceded that for the system to work it would need widespread uptake. He envisages governments making the technology mandatory for safety reasons.Any system that tracks cars could also be used for speed enforcement or national road tolling.

Roads in the UK are already subject to the closest surveillance of any in the world. Police control a database that is fed information from automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras, and are able to deduce the journeys of as many as 10 million drivers a day. Details are stored for up to five years.

However, the government has been told that ANPR speed camera technology is "inherently limited" with "numerous shortcomings".

Advice to ministers obtained by the Guardian under the Freedom of Information Act advocates upgrading to a more effective car tracking-based system, similar to CVIS technology, but warns such a system could be seen as a "spy in the cab" and "may be regarded as draconian".

Introducing a more benign technology first, the report by transport consultants argues, would "enable potential adverse public reaction to be better managed".

Simon Davies, director of the watchdog Privacy International, said: "The problem is not what the data tells the state, but what happens with interlocking information it already has. If you correlate car tracking data with mobile phone data, which can also track people, there is the potential for an almost infallible surveillance system."


Quote:
Introducing a more benign technology first, the report by transport consultants argues, would "enable potential adverse public reaction to be better managed".


So bring it in a little bit at a time so there's less chance of the public noticing, and won't cause a mass revolt? Well, now we already know what’s planned.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 08:55 
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Dixie wrote:
The Guardian



Quote:
Introducing a more benign technology first, the report by transport consultants argues, would "enable potential adverse public reaction to be better managed".


So bring it in a little bit at a time so there's less chance of the public noticing, and won't cause a mass revolt? Well, now we already know what’s planned.



And you thought the "victory" over road pricing meant the battle was won ?
The whole sorry theme so far has been propose one system, "back down" over the "privacy" storm, and then propose another [less obtrusive] system which becomes more intrusive as time goes-on.
The entire story so far has been to get the "transponder" into the vehicle. That is the basis of the tracking system. The vehicle has to have some system INSIDE it for ANY tracking/pricing system to work. The limitation/s of any system that relies on actually spotting the vehicle first before knowledge of its location can be available should have been apparent long ago.
With this proposed system, road pricing will be inevitable. All the data needed to bill for road use will be available. It will also be able to track individual vehicles, and as an aside, track vehicles traveling together (ie: convoy). Even two vehicles (family/group/burglars/pickets/terrorists/etc) traveling on the same route will be highlighted. All that is needed now is for the system to be capable of calculating the vehicles time of travel between two fixed points using the in-car "beacon".

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 18:46 
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Quote:
• Box could reduce accidents, pollution and congestion

How?

Improving visibility on the roads could do this without having to spy on us.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 22:27 
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Hi :)

I am afraid it will be used badly but the Government has many methods of tracking people.....including by mobile phones...:(

All the best Brett :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 20:36 
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MAG saw this one coming 10 years ago. Try searching for the "Mullhouse Declaration".


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 07:48 
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To fuel the imaginations of the conspiracy theorists ...

One of the possible effects of the car industry (worldwide?) having to go to their respective Governments for emergency funding is that they will be under some sort of obligation or control. This will make it easy for a "security" minister to say that all new vehicles must be fitted with tracking systems and get the manufacturers to do it with no parliamentary scrutiny as no law would have to be passed.

Discuss. :bunker:

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 08:36 
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The trouble is: The conspiracy theorists are winning.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 08:46 
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jomukuk wrote:
The trouble is: The conspiracy theorists are winning.


So what's your explanation for what is going on in the world today? And don’t you think it’s possible that our Governments will do all they can to justify their means of imposing a New World Order onto its population.

Try reading this link (if you have the time) and see if it dosn't fit in.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 00:57 
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The natural state of man is as a slave.
Who/what the master is matters not.
Whether the slave is an individual or an entire race also matters not.
Everybody suffers from the same delusion, that of being free.
And the time for changing the "new order" is long gone.
Here's another "new order" coming:

http://www.abd.org.uk/pr/659.htm

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 04:03 
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jomukuk wrote:


Read my opening post :)

jomukuk wrote:
The natural state of man is as a slave.


Where did you get that from? :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 09:03 
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Dixie wrote:
jomukuk wrote:


Read my opening post :)

jomukuk wrote:
The natural state of man is as a slave.


Where did you get that from? :lol:


I got "that" from history.
People have generally always been told what to do by others....man may well be born free, but spends a very large proportion of his/her time (from birth to death) being told what to do by others ( a sort of voluntary, enlightened, slavery) (!)
Democracy just means you get to elect those who tell you what to do, who then ignore what you want them to do, and do what they want to do.

As for your original post...quite.

Another state of man is that of being unable to connect cause and effect.
Or being unable to follow a chain of events and foresee the eventual destination. (etc)

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 09:27 
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Five needs of most animals:

Survive
Love / Social Belonging
Learn / Express Creativity
Respect / Power
Autonomy / Freedom

Each individual has a unique 'need strength profile', which could be displayed as a bar graph, if you like.

The few who have an abnormally and significantly strong need for both Power & Freedom are overwhelmingly outnumbered and surrounded by the many. The latter are quite satisfied with meaningless trinkets of 'respect', such as "You guys are doing a fantastic job! Here's a coffee mug!" ... and/or the 'freedom' to choose which consumer products to consume.

More importantly, they are surrounded by others with little desire for more power or freedom, which is very effective reinforcement, especially when your spouse and children need food, shelter and clothing 'far more' than to be properly educated, treated with equal consideration regardless of 'caste', or to be afforded the opportunity to learn that which one naturally gravitates toward as a child, so that one is more likely to do what one would love to do as an adult.

Things are not the way they are by accident.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:45 
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It is quite worrying with the internet snooping laws that come into place on Monday. Cars being tracked. People tracked. Why do they have to know everything everyone is doing unless they want to punish people? A benign government wouldn't care. Everyone knows terrorism threat is a myth and is invariably caused by the actions of governments.

Will be looking up William Glasser. Sounds interesting.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 16:53 
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The Great Power Of Conditioning :(

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 17:04 
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funny that there is much secrecy with what the government can and do get up to, but they can what us any time they like. They counter that if we are not doing anything wrong we have nothing to worry about. But it is more and more difficult to obey all the new rules, laws and regulations that are thrust upon us. Then the real criminals just carry on as normal.

Here is an idea, most people, most of the time are not law breakers, they are just people going about their business.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 17:31 
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All government is malign.
It's in the nature of the beast to want to control totally.
It eliminates the risk.
Further: No government is democratic.
We elect some people: Those people are not government.
Government is the organisation behind the mask of democracy.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 07:56 
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teabelly wrote:
It is quite worrying with the internet snooping laws that come into place on Monday.


Souldn't we all do the same? Civil Disobedience protest at Data Retention of email :)

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