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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 19:28 
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In 2006, Luton in Bedfordshire was seen by police as a hot spot for so-called "cash for crash" insurance fraud, but six years later members of a gang responsible for a £5.3m scam are in jail.


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The police investigation saw 39 defendants appear at crown court in separate hearings over three years.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-13092585
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BBC News wrote:
'Cash for crash' Luton gang smashed after five-year probe
15 April 2011 Last updated at 14:41

In 2006, Luton in Bedfordshire was seen by police as a hot spot for so-called "cash for crash" insurance fraud, but six years later members of a gang responsible for a £5.3m scam are in jail.

The Luton-based ring engineered crashes involving unsuspecting motorists as well as making bogus and inflated personal injury insurance claims.
Police came across the insurance fraud while they were investigating organised criminal activity in the town.
With the Insurance Fraud Bureau, they uncovered a web of deceit involving people from professions including the legal, medical and motor trade.
During the police operation, homes in Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire and Berkshire were raided.
The car insurance fraud centred on an accident management company based in Leagrave Road in Luton.
The gang also used land at a farm to the north of the town to store the damaged vehicles.
The police investigation saw 39 defendants appear at crown court in separate hearings over three years.

'National problem'
Three of the final four were found guilty on Thursday at Luton Crown Court of conspiracy to defraud.
Kamsan Mahmood, 42 of Long Meadow Farm, Chalton, Istafa Hussain, 35, of Lincoln Road, Luton, and Peter Charlery, 45, of Long Meadow Farm, Chalton, have been remanded in custody to be sentenced at Luton Crown Court on 27 April.

Irtiza Fazal, 40, of Lincoln Road, was acquitted by the jury after a seven-week trial.
Thirty three defendants pleaded guilty and two others were convicted at earlier trials.
Those court proceedings could not be reported until now because of legal reasons.
At the start of one of the trials Prosecutor David Farrell QC said: "The term used for this fraud is cash for crash. It has become a national problem but had particular hot spots, Luton being one of them."

Bedfordshire's assistant chief constable Andrew Richer said: "In 2006 Luton was a known hot spot for offences, also known as 'cash for crash', but in 2011 that is no longer the case.
"The case had grown considerably in size and complexity since the initial lines of investigation were pursued in May 2006.
"This was a calculated and systematic fraud perpetrated on numerous victims."

After Thursday's hearing Glen Marr, director of the Insurance Fraud Bureau, said: "The fraud is estimated to cost the industry £1.9bn a year and that adds on average £44 to every policy holder's annual insurance premium.
"We will continue to find, pursue and expose criminals involved in organised insurance fraud.
"The message is loud and clear - seek to defraud an insurer and you risk serious repercussions and seizure of assets."

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 03:25 
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It's definately a problem and everyone IMO is partly to blame. The motorist, the repairer, and the insurer. Years ago, during working hours whilst driving I used to listen to Alan Beswick on GMR. There was a case on one day where a driver had hit a parked car, no occupants. So he duly left a note giving his details for the owner......................

4 people claimed whiplash!....

Telling the Insurance company that no-one was in the car, and that the claim was false: They ignored and paid out. Needless to say, the claim was laid at the door of the motorist, who paid increased insurance from then on...

Obviously, if this happens to you, get witnesses on the spot to swear that no one was in the car. Either that or just bugger off!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 08:21 
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It has always seemed to me that, one an Insurance Company accepts liability, they spend money like drunken sailors. A few years ago I ran into a bollard in a car park damaging the front bumper, a wing and a headlight. My local garage offered to do the repair for £400 using a second hand bumper. As the car was six or seven years old that was quite acceptable to me but the insurance company insisted on it being done by an "approved repairer" who charged four times as much and did a lousy job which had to be put right by my local chap.
The whole business of comprehensive insurance is a cosy back scratching deal between the companies and the approved repairers. I only take comp insurance because it is cheaper than TPFT, especially if you accept a four figure excess.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:46 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
It has always seemed to me that, one an Insurance Company accepts liability, they spend money like drunken sailors.

That is an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of having a policy that forces people to pay premiums to private, profit driven companies. These companies can't lose, no matter how much they extract the urine!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 16:27 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
It has always seemed to me that, one an Insurance Company accepts liability, they spend money like drunken sailors.

That is an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of having a policy that forces people to pay premiums to private, profit driven companies.

I would have thought that a private profit driven insurance company would want to reduce its payments below what the claimant asked for rather than inflating them fourfold.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 16:31 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
It has always seemed to me that, one an Insurance Company accepts liability, they spend money like drunken sailors.

That is an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of having a policy that forces people to pay premiums to private, profit driven companies.

I would have thought that a private profit driven insurance company would want to reduce its payments below what the claimant asked for rather than inflating them fourfold.

There seems to be a mix up between: 'people paying premiums to insurance companies' and 'insurance companies paying out compensation to people'.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 20:03 
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Steve wrote:
There seems to be a mix up between: 'people paying premiums to insurance companies' and 'insurance companies paying out compensation to people'.


Sorry old chap, not reading your banter. I would expect any profit driven organisation to
1) Maximise its income. Which, in the free market which exists for insurance, is limited by competition.
2) Minimise its outgoings. Which, patently isn't done by choosing the more expensive bidder.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 04:09 
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Bookmakers!.............Full Stop.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:44 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
There seems to be a mix up between: 'people paying premiums to insurance companies' and 'insurance companies paying out compensation to people'.


Sorry old chap, not reading your banter. I would expect any profit driven organisation to
1) Maximise its income. Which, in the free market which exists for insurance, is limited by competition.
2) Minimise its outgoings. Which, patently isn't done by choosing the more expensive bidder.

No banter was given, at least not by me anyway.

I wouldn’t expect any profit-driven business to fritter away their outgoings; that would be silly.
However, I would absolutely expect a group of profit-driven organisations, whose overall income is guaranteed by law, to ‘spend money like drunken sailors’, then use that as an excuse to charge higher premiums. And guess what: nationwide KSIs are falling, but premiums are rapidly increasing – it seems to me that if such a plan was implemented then it must have been very successful!

Of course, their position could instead have made them merely complacent, so allowing them to become slapdash with their finances, then simply recouping their margin with higher premiums.

Either way, I’m convinced their behaviour is the unfortunate but inevitable consequence of having a policy that forces people to pay premiums to private, profit driven companies. These companies can't lose, no matter how much they extract the urine!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:38 
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Steve wrote:
However, I would absolutely a group of profit-driven organisations, whose overall income is guaranteed by law, to ‘spend money like drunken sailors’, then use that as an excuse to charge higher premiums.


It is the number of clients not the overall income of the group is guaranteed by law. The distribution of those clients between members of the group is subject to the normal competitive advantage.

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Either way, I’m convinced their behaviour is the unfortunate but inevitable consequence of having a policy that forces people to pay premiums to private, profit driven companies. These companies can't lose, no matter how much they extract the urine!


Of course an individual company can loose. If it sets its premiums too high or fails to control its expenditure it will eventually have to cease trading. Even non profit driven, mutual companies are subject to the same economic imperatives.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 13:38 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
It is the number of clients not the overall income of the group is guaranteed by law.

My bad, but I reckon my point remains.

dcbwhaley wrote:
The distribution of those clients between members of the group is subject to the normal competitive advantage.

I was not not talking about relative distributions. Please remain on track!

Although it is true that a consumer can jump from one company to another, in our case, the consumer must remain with one of these companies within that group - this is the critical difference. We have enough problems with cartels with companies where the number of clients for that group is not guaranteed....

dcbwhaley wrote:
Of course an individual company can loose. If it sets its premiums too high or fails to control its expenditure it will eventually have to cease trading. Even non profit driven, mutual companies are subject to the same economic imperatives.

Again, that argument is irrelevant, for the same reasons. To amplify the point: I was not talking about individual companies: "group" !!

Unlike companies in other sectors, the consumer must purchase that product.
If KFC, Macdonalds, Burger King, etc started charging £30 for their meals, quite simply no one would buy them.
If Direct Line, More Than, Churchill, etc started charging £1000 for premiums.... oops!

Do you now understand how the "same economic imperatives" do not hold? If not, then please explain how.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 16:18 
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Steve wrote:
Unlike companies in other sectors, the consumer must purchase that product.

There are many sectors of industry where the consumer must purchase the product if they are to lead a normal life. Shoes, spectacles, housing, clothes and food[/quote]

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If KFC, Macdonalds, Burger King, etc started charging £30 for their meals, quite simply no one would buy them.

True enough, but those are very much discretionary purchases. But if all the purveyors of groceries - from Tesco down to the smallest village grocer -decided to increase the price of all their foodstuffs tenfold all of us without the facilities to grow our own food would be obliged to pay their prices or starve. Economics 101 tells us why that will never happen and the provision of services such as car insurance are subject to the same rules.

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Do you now understand how the "same economic imperatives" do not hold? If not, then please explain how.


Frankly no. Your argument is not convincing. I started this debate with an anecdote about how my insurer insistec on spending more than i wanted to repair my car. You replied " I would absolutely a group of profit-driven organisations, whose overall income is guaranteed by law, to ‘spend money like drunken sailors’, then use that as an excuse to charge higher premiums" Yet very much the same thing happened with my property insurance where the company insisted on some very expensive underpinning even though two surveyors insisted it was not necessary. The fact that a company which does not have its custom guaranteed by statute behaves in an identical way to one that doesn't have such a guarantee suggests to me that the statutory guarantee is no part of the reason for that behaviour.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 18:21 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
Unlike companies in other sectors, the consumer must purchase that product.

There are many sectors of industry where the consumer must purchase the product if they are to lead a normal life. Shoes, spectacles, housing, clothes and food

You are confusing mandatory with necessity. Even 'necessity' is too strong a word.

Shoes: do you make your last more than a year? You’re a bloke (an engineering type as well) so I’m guessing you make yours last for quite a few years; you might even wear sandals, or nothing at all!
People don’t have to buy specs (I certainly don't); those who do can make the same pair last many years; the same goes for clothes.
I haven’t purchased a house, a great many people haven’t either (and don't even rent), yet we all lead a "normal life"!
You shot down your own food example: getting "facilities to grow our own food"; there are other ways around that as well.

dcbwhaley wrote:
and the provision of services such as car insurance are subject to the same rules.

... I must have missed the laws that force us to buy shoes, clothes, houses, food - let alone forcing us to constantly pay to have continued coverage.

A driver must always be insured (if the vehicle isn’t SORNed, regardless of if it is used).
Furthermore, 10% of the population show this isn't really necessary to lead a "normal life". Your analogies fail, several times over.

dcbwhaley wrote:
You replied " I would absolutely expect a group of profit-driven organisations, whose overall income is guaranteed by law, to ‘spend money like drunken sailors’, then use that as an excuse to charge higher premiums" Yet very much the same thing happened with my property insurance where the company insisted on some very expensive underpinning even though two surveyors insisted it was not necessary. The fact that a company which does not have its custom guaranteed by statute behaves in an identical way to one that doesn't have such a guarantee suggests to me that the statutory guarantee is no part of the reason for that behaviour.

Your logic has a gaping flaw; what you say is correct but irrelevant. A being the same as B doesn't imply that A must be linked to B; B can have its own independent causes. I'm afraid your counter-claim is far from convincing.

Market forces demands the group prices of non-statutory purchases; they as a group cannot to be slapdash otherwise they simply wouldn't get the business; it is as simple as that.
The same cannot be said for car insurance as they as a group will continue to get the business; it is as simple as that.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 19:03 
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Steve

Most of your arguments are quite specious. The vendors of car insurance operate within the same economic paradigm as the vendors of everything telse. The fact that it is mandatory for car drivers to purchase insurance in no way distorts the market. It might create the market - and that is debatable - but it does not influence its operation. If you think that it does please explain in detail exactly how

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 19:36 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve

Most of your arguments are quite specious. The vendors of car insurance operate within the same economic paradigm as the vendors of everything telse. The fact that it is mandatory for car drivers to purchase insurance in no way distorts the market. It might create the market - and that is debatable - but it does not influence its operation. If you think that it does please explain in detail exactly how

I have already explained as much as I consider reasonable.

Like I said: national KSI rates are ever reducing, yet premiums are ever rocketing. Specious or not, you gotta agree something is wrong with that picture.
The only other area where we get less service for greater cost is where we're taxed; tax isn't discretionary either!

I vehemently disagree that outlay being mandatory/discretionary doesn't affect how suppliers react, and I have been given no argument (that has withstood scrutiny) that supports your opinions or that counters mine, hence there is nothing that allows to further this debate. So I think you and I will have to leave it at that.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 20:37 
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Steve wrote:
[I have already explained as much as I consider reasonable.


You have explained nothing. You have stated, as a matter of fact, that legally mandated purchases follow a different economic model to non mandated but necessary purchases. You have not, and cannot, justify that statement in terms that would be understandable to anyone versed in economic theory.

Quote:
Like I said: national KSI rates are ever reducing, yet premiums are ever rocketing.

That would be a problem if a) premiums really were rocketing. Our premiums have fallen over the last few years. Because we change insurers every year - that is tthe market at work. and b)if there were nois a confounding factor. The cost of compensating each accident is rising. And insurance also pays for repairs to damaged cars and it is no secret that modern construction makes the cost of repairing vehicles increase yearly.

Quote:
I vehemently disagree that outlay being mandatory/discretionary doesn't affect how suppliers react, and I have been given no argument (that has withstood scrutiny) that supports your opinions or that counters mine,

Nor have I heard any argument that supports your argument. Which is, effectively, that car insurance is not subject to normal market forces because you cannot choose whether or not to buy that insurance (which is in itself an inaccurate statement). I countered that you cannot choose whether or not to eat but that the free market still operates very well in the grocery sector.

So please explain to me why the car insurance market is different to the grocery market.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 21:46 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You have explained nothing. You have stated, as a matter of fact, that legally mandated purchases follow a different economic model to non mandated but necessary purchases. You have not, and cannot, justify that statement in terms that would be understandable to anyone versed in economic theory.

What was it you corrected me on ... : "the number of clients [of the group] is guaranteed by law.", which I believe doesn't apply to shoes, houses, clothes, etc - yes?
Is that differentiation enough to affect the economic model? If your answer is "no" then just say so and we'll let the reader decide for themselves.

dcbwhaley wrote:
That would be a problem if a) premiums really were rocketing.

Google 'car insurance average costs'. The numbers within the top hits show that it is a genuine issue...
AA Insurance Premium Index wrote:
Annual Shoparound average for car cover jumps 40% in 12 months


dcbwhaley wrote:
Our premiums have fallen over the last few years.

"N = 1" fallacy! I've shown how your position is a minority one.

dcbwhaley wrote:
The cost of compensating each accident is rising.

Was that "stated, as a matter of fact" ?
Proof please!

dcbwhaley wrote:
And insurance also pays for repairs to damaged cars and it is no secret that modern construction makes the cost of repairing vehicles increase yearly.

By inflation busting proportions ... over and above the reductions associated with the falling casualty rate? Proof please!

dcbwhaley wrote:
Which is, effectively, that car insurance is not subject to normal market forces because you cannot choose whether or not to buy that insurance (which is in itself an inaccurate statement).

The correct statement is: you cannot legally choose whether or not to have insurance.
Conversely, you can legally choose whether or not to buy shoes, houses, clothes, food, etc.

Of course, You can always choose to not drive a car ... I think I may have unearthed something here :scratchchin:

dcbwhaley wrote:
I countered that you cannot choose whether or not to eat but that the free market still operates very well in the grocery sector.

So please explain to me why the car insurance market is different to the grocery market.

For food, you are free to do the following; you can:
- eat an awful lot less (you are right when you said there is little cost difference between different levels of policy cover),
- switch to bread and water (there is no insurance equivalent of this),
- scrump wild fruit (there is no insurance equivalent of this),
- grow your own food (drivers can underwrite themselves, only if they have IIRC £100k or £1M cash laying around),
- do the food equivalent of a booze run. I wonder if I can be insured to drive in the UK by a company entirely located in South Africa ...

Governments will never let food producers make that much mark up on food, but we know ours will happily screw motorists :)

Your description of insurance companies "spend money like drunken sailors" does suggest they are in a comfortable position - not something you would expect from those in real competition.

You had answered your own question, and I've directly answered several more. If you don't want to accept the answers then just say so. I really can't see how we can continue unless you contribute something worthwhile to this debate.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 22:18 
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Steve wrote:
What was it you corrected me on ... : "the number of clients [of the group] is guaranteed by law.", which I believe doesn't apply to shoes, houses, clothes, etc - yes? Is that differentiation enough to affect the economic model? If your answer is "no" then just say so and we'll let the reader decide for themselves.

No no no. Whether the imperative is a legal mandate (as in the case of insurance) or the need to avoid starving to death (in the case of food) the imperative is equally compelling. More so in the case of food because one does not need to buy car insurance 9stop driving or drive uninsured) but one does need to buy food.

Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
The cost of compensating each accident is rising.

Was that "stated, as a matter of fact" ?

It is a possible confounding factor. Whilst I don't have figures to prove it there has been enough exasperation expressed on these forums about the way that the compensation culture is forcing up premiums to make a a plausible reason.

Quote:
The correct statement is: you cannot legally choose whether or not to have insurance.

Of course you can. My former employer, quite legally, did not insure their fleet of cars.

Quote:
Conversely, you can legally choose whether or not to buy ... food

Only as a way of committing suicide. I think that you will find that living on fruits and berries is not practical in a British winter. And growing your own food requires the purchase of seeds, compost, tools etc.

Quote:
Your description of insurance companies "spend money like drunken sailors" does suggest they are in a comfortable position - not something you would expect from those in real competition.

But that applies to all insurance companies not just those in the mandatory sector. The reason they do it is complicated but not inexplicable to any one understands the law governing insurance contracts. And if there is no competition how is it that my wife gets motor insurances quotes which vary by a factor of ten, from £600 to £6,000? Why, if companies can charge what they want, was my last insurance premium a mere £250 rather than several thousand. Market forces is why.

There is no point in continuing this argument since your grasp of economic theory is either so tenuous as to make argument meaningless or so far in advance of the leading pedagogues that it would be cruel of you to mock me with your sophistication. I leave it to the reader to decide which of those alternatives is the correct one.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 23:34 
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Is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour? :wink:

sorry, couldn't resist

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 01:09 
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Yeah, and I feel like I've just left greenshed's abuse room too :D

it has become obvious that someone somewhere is bantering!

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