Safe Speed Forums

I'm surprised this place is still going. Deaths are still trending right down, despite the (ridiculous) predictions of future carnage caused by cameras - I see now well below 2,000 in the last couple of years. Time to switch off the lights and move on with your lives, as I see most people are doing anyway judging by the distinct lack of posts across the forums.

Well, you could say it's over because the argument has been won. Large numbers of speed cameras have been decommissioned, very few new ones are being installed, and yet, despite the dire predictions of the likes of RoadPeace and BRAKE, casualties have continued their downward trend.

The only period when they flatlined was when large numbers of new cameras were being installed and there was a widespread feeling of paranoia about speed enforcement.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

One could say "our work here is done..."! I must admit, I never really thought speed cameras would make much of a difference to the bigger picture one way or the other, and that does, indeed, seem to have been the case. Huge reductions in KSIs claimed (and then in the small print "...at the camera sites"), but nationally, the figures continued the similar overall downward trend that they have done for several decades. Switching great batches of cameras off doesn't seem to have made much of a difference the other way either. I suppose we might have missed a trick in that, unlike certain more hysterical road safety organisations, we didn't scream from the rooftops quite as much as we might have done when Swindon got rid of all its cameras and KSIs went down, but hey ho, the main thing is that if the witch isn't actually dead, she's certainly distinctly under the weather and people still aren't getting hurt in any greater numbers - which can be no bad thing!

Some other aspects to bear in mind about the likely resumption of the downward trend in KSIs are:

- Fewer young drivers on the road due to very high costs for them.
- General reduction in road travel due to the continuing recession.
- Change of focus by local authorities away from cameras to other more effective road safety measures.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Absolutely Malcolm; without a doubt! I couldn’t afford a car for over two years, until recently, and my annual miles per year has plummeted! It’s no surprise the points you make would be hijacked by any and every pro-camera lobby.

Speaking for myself, (obviously), you can only make the same point so many ways before sounding like a parrot. That’s the only reason I post less, however, I’m just as passionate as ever about the the points we ever make on the subject of dumb, (by definition), enforcement over a more intelligent assessment of a situation. To that end I can never see the subject going away, even if SS had never existed, until this matter is addressed one way or another. People may be stupid enough to drive at a speed where it is entirely inappropriate, but they are not so stupid as to swallow being ripped off under false pretences. These things always take years, that’s politics for you.


I’m not sure I ever saw “carnage” due to cameras as such. There were isolated cases where people panic-braked because of them, which is dangerous, and I remember a very damning video where people crashed because of a speed camera, which was quickly pulled because it didn’t reflect well on the so-called ‘benefits’ of scameras. But as for carnage, maybe I missed an article or something.

For me the issue was always about exactly who it is you are truly catching; bad drivers or good? This is what started it for me when I joined SS all those years ago. Because I have amassed so many personal accounts from good drivers who have been done over the years, I think I know the system in its current guise isn’t working to weed out the truly bad drivers. As I said just recently, on another thread, they way speed cameras have been used are to road safety like chemotherapy is to a cancer patient – killing off good cells for some perceived greater cause.

In fact I would go as far to say I personally haven’t met or heard of an account of someone I know who is a maniac that has been done and thought to myself “thank goodness they got him at last”, but maybe I just don’t let that sort of person into my life. (Actually, when I have I got him out of my life ). No, they have in the main all been middle aged or elderly men and women with a long accident-free history going about their business, as indeed they have done for years or decades, and prosecuting them has done absolutely nothing for road safety.

But shush, you’re not supposed to say this...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Oh i don't know, i can think of several people who's driving has given me the willies; mostly through lack of awareness, occasionally inappropriate speed, rarely due to being over the limit. I was not surprised when they did get pinged by a camera and had to take points / pay a fine / go on a course.
I was also not surprised when the above did nothing to improve their driving, they still give me the willies, some even more so as their awareness (or lack of) is now also focussed on looking out for cameras.

Cameras always have been targetting the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I completely agree with you ed, and I think I may have not explained what I meant very well.

I’m glad the maniacs you have known got done. The odd maniac I have known, (numbers I can count on one hand thankfully), who deserved to have been done for speeding, to my knowledge, never have been done whereas the good guys I know with a lifetime of accident/incident free driving have. As you say, the bad ones just carry on as before and it’s not just about their speed. (Memories of a certain wannabe bully, come alpha-male, I had to work with and be driven by on occasion ).

If I had one wish regarding speed cameras it’s that if they really had to erect them somewhere, that they did so on truly dangerous stretches, instead of where they just get numbers. At least then it would catch bad drivers and make them think that they deserve to be done because, let’s say, it’s in a 30 limit, there’s parked cars, the road is narrow etc. etc. Who could argue with that? Certainly not me. But they never did.

Maybe, just maybe, their thinking was that if you speed on a big road where it safer you must being doing so on small roads too and outside schools etc. It always comes across to me that they never considered that I may drive with alacrity on big roads like NSL, DC and motorways but actually drive very slowly and cautiously, as appropriate, down hazardous small roads.

The camera traps I always see are on wide open roads, usually with good visibility, no big pedestrian count, limit maybe dumbed down for no good reason etc. The whole agenda was rotten from the start and, IMHO, never intended to catch bad drivers but just to get the numbers so they can boast how they are seen to be doing something. The rest was just an exercise in massaging the numbers and statistics.

I don’t know any reasonable thinking guy, myself included, who would argue with being prosecuted if what you were doing was truly risky or dangerous. But when you get good drivers driving in a safe manner they are not exactly going to think “well I deserve it because it was speeding”. They would, however, think “well I deserve it because it was risky or dangerous” if that was indeed the case.

I’ve still got a clean licence, so it may seem odd that I feel so strongly about it. The reason though is precisely because of what I’ve just said and the iniquity or unfairness of it all. There, but for the grace of god, go any one of us...

"Cameras always have been targetting the wrong thing at the wrong time"

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Yes, many of the people I've known who have been caught out by cameras have been the unaware rather than the fast as such. In many cases I'd actually put them in the bottom half of the overall speed scale.

But if you're just trusting to sticking to the limit to keep you "safe", then one failure of observation can make all the difference.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Thanks for stopping by.
The lower rate of KSI is directly related to the economic downturn and has always (approx every 10 yrs) shown a drop in these figures. Partly due to people going less far, less often and so exposed to less danger. It is also to do with the fact that people tend to be more defensive when a recession is on and so crash less.
These figure will climb as we come out of recession although there is usually a delay.
So perhaps that helps you to appreciate what we are doing more. We look at facts and always have done.

The lack of interest in the forums is partly down to me ... I am setting up a new location near to London, which takes up a lot of my time at the moment. This enables me to then be much more active and local to politicians and ready to respond as well as advance concepts and education. As I find more and more time to devote to Safe Speed this interest will grow.
Automated enforcement is proving not to be the 'panacea' to road safety as we predicted, and is causing drivers to be distracted.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Personally, I think SS have done sterling work over the last decade in showing the general public what a scam/sham the whole speed camera and speed kills mantra was.

A decade or so ago, if you asked the general motoring public if they thought speed cameras were good, the majority would probably said yes but now it is the minority who would agree and this is probably why local authorities are dropping them like hot potatoes.

Un-fortunately there are still a few dinasours in the general public (probably non drivers or occasional drivers) or cannot see past their knitting patterns to the reality staring them in the face but people in general, can now see that scameras were little more than tax machines and do little to make the roads safer.

Now if we could only get speed limit setting out of the hands of amatuers in local authorities and councillors pandering to old Mrs Smith, who doesn't like horseless carriages and miss Snobsbody who bought that lovely big house in the country but realised two days after she moved in, that cars actually use the B493, purely to win votes and instead back into the hands of the professionals to set them, we will be really getting somewhere with road safety.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

That's just anecdotal evidence.

If you look at the fatality trend it flatlined from about 1996-2003 (~3,400) and then resumed downwards at a tremendous rate. With minor blips total traffic volume has been on an increasing trend ever since the existence of statistics on the subject. From 2005 to 2010 there was a huge drop in K's (3,400 - 1,900) which coincides with the highest nationwide speed enforcement activity. Obviously, it's not all down to this, I am suggesting that the huge campaign on speed enforcement activity still played a major part in this reduction. I question the oft-made assertion that people drive round like zombies staring at their speedometer as a direct consequence of speed cameras.

Nope, from 2005 onwards the number of speeding convictions has fallen following the end of the camera hypothecation scheme. See, for example, here.

I would mainly put the continued welcome fall in fatalities in recent years down to improved crashworthiness of vehicles, better standards of medical care and reduced participation of the 17-25 age group in driving.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Huge improvements have been made in terms of vehicle features alone...
air bags are in nearly all vehicles now - even second hand ones.
New vehicles have side airbags, curtain airbags, seat belt pre-tensioners, ABS, EBS etc. etc.

Then we have air ambulances and bike paramedics - this has made a huge difference in rural areas such as Cumbria.

My son didn't bother taking his car to Uni, as the costs of travel by car were prohibitive.
He took his PassPlus test, for which he attended a Road Awareness Training course.
Even so his insurance was over £2000 for a Peugeot 206 - his cousin elected not to even bother taking driving lessons!

Stats 19 figures for causational factors show how low speed figures in accident causes, and no amount of manipulation can change the certain fact that speed enforcement is only going to address that low number of causes.

SPECS are a good example of an idea not thought through.
The easy way to avoid being caught over the limit is to drive below it - but what do you see in SPECS sections?
Drivers driving bumper to bumper AT the limit while constantly watching to ensure they stay on the margin!
They do nothing to make roads safer, and because the revenue is so important, they even put extra cameras inbetween the start and finish which negates any idea that they are AVERAGE speed cameras!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

But those are odd statistics to try and use to support the use of speed cameras? The first speed cameras in the UK were installed in, (I think) about 1990 and the numbers grew rapidly over the next 10 years or so, in which case, the "flatlining" period took place largely within the time cameras were being used (and their use was rapidly increasing). If you'd been able to show a close correlation between number if active cameras and KSis, (and, more recently, an increase as a result of cameras being switched off!) I'd have been more likely to accept the assertion.

Yes, absolutely. The period when fatalities flatlined was exactly the period when the use of speed cameras increased most rapidly and there was most discussion of them in the media - plus a growing sense of fear and panic about speed enforcement. When the foot was taken off the gas with camera expansion, as it were, then the fatalities started falling again. I'm not saying this proves that cameras are dangerous, but it certainly does nothing to support the idea that they improve safety.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Safety cameras save lives.

[citation needed]

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Did anyone just hear the mating call of a dinasour?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Sigh. If only they were "safety" cameras. Unfortunately, they can only detect speed.

Speed in excess of the limit (which is all cameras can react to) is a contributory factor in only a very small proportion of KSI accidents.

Best concentrate elsewhere to save lives.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

mmmm... I have to wonder why about 95% of people having accidents are the safe ones...they aren't exceeding a speed limit so they must be the safe ones...right?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.