Safe Speed Forums

I just posted this same message in Speed Safety Driving and the Law, but in case it was more appropriate here, I'm reposting:
Last week I got into my first major accident. I know I was going around 70 or 75 as was everyone else prior to the accident, and I'm pretty sure the woman who hit me was speeding too. Taking a look at this now and how she's in the hospital from injuries received or made worse by not wearing her seat belt, I've realized following the law isn't about not getting caught or paying a ticket, but about keeping agreements that provide a safe area to drive. I've sped most of my driving career to some degree or another, and got a ticket for going 85 in a 70 zone back in 2003. But the limit and the fine was always just a hassle. But the fact is, the speed limit is the law and I was breaking it.
My subject line was taken from something I saw once that said "The speed limit is the law. Obey it. Or pay for it." I realized paying for it could be more than the $100 fine I paid, you could pay for it with your life or someone else's. I've realized I'm not willing to pay for it, and I drove home tonight obeying every speed limit for the first time in a very long time. It took maybe 3 minutes longer, I didn't hold anyone else up and I noticed there were a lot of people out there who weren't breaking the law. This was amazing to me and I enjoyed knowing I was obeying the law, there was no way I could be pulled over for anything and I was making it safer out on the road.
Part of this was inspired by reading precept 9 in the free book offered at this site http://www.twth.org/ and I highly recommend it.

I've just had a very quick look at the website. It has many annoying popups making navigation difficult.

Why do you recommend this specifically to help one deal with accidents?

Edited to add that, whilst I had assumed the above message was a spam, although I gave the "pop up" warning while giving the poster the b enefit of the doubt. I've now had a good trawl on the referred website and am confident the whole thing is a scam.

Rand? Prove me wrong. Tell me how this helped you.

Regulars? I recommend strongly steering clear of that site unless you have strong security on your PCs.

Spam spam spam spam....

Hi Rand.

How do you know your speedo isn't over-reading by a large amount? (up to V/10 + 6.25mph) - it could legally read 83 and while you were doing 70. At an indicated 75, I would say you probably weren't speeding after all.

What actually caused the accident? poor lane change? tailgating? mechanical fault? lack of consideration at junctions?

It's a poor assumption to think you're a safe driver or that you won't get pulled if you're not breaking the limit

And I dare say a smelly old troll at that.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think its' better to make them not want feeding!

Sorry if pop-ups occured, I guess my browsers set to block them. The book is The Way to Happiness, and after my accident, I ran accross a copy of it I'd been given years ago. I offered the link so my message wouldn't get too wordy by quoting it, but the precept I was talking about was "Don't do anything illegal".
The book and this concept didn't help me avoid accidents, it just made me take responsibility for how I've been driving for the last 6 years. I felt bad after the accident, responsible for causing someone pain. It's hard to tell if speeding had something to do with the accident, the full police report won't be available for another 5 weeks or so, but her having her seatbelt off - another law, certainly contributed to her injuries.
Taking a look at it, I figured most car accidents happen or are made worse when one or more law is broken. Examples, speeding over the limit, driving drunk and not wearing a seatbelt. I took a look at some sites that seemed to back this up ( http://www.safedrivingtest.com/morespeed.html http://www.madd.org/stats/10212 http://www.infobandit.com/article.php?id=87 ), and while my search was by no means exhaustive, a cursory glance backed up what I already knew to be true: the laws are the agreements we have and by following them when we're driving it actually makes it a safe, or at the least much safer, place to drive. When we break these agreements, which I was doing on a regular basis, we put others and ourselves at risk. Previously, I just thought of it as risk of getting caught - by the police - and fined, which was merely annoying. But with this information, I realized the risk became not just getting a ticket but causing thousands in damage, killing someone, a loved one or a stranger, even possibly one's self, etc.
This cleared up the police's job for me too. I realized their job isn't to hassle us (though in some areas it may have turned into that or a money making enterprise), but to help us keep it safe out there. Those who get a ticket should be learning from their mistakes - by going to traffic school and relooking at their agreements and working to keep them, rather than going to "remove the point on their driving record". It just seems like this is lost on most people, and was lost on me. If there are any officers who are members on this site, I'd appreciate their comments on this - the increase in risk of accident and exacerbation thereof through ignoring/breaking laws, and what they feel their part in this is.
This rather simple idea "Don't do anything illegal" cleared all this up for me, and that was the purpose of this post, to see if it could help others as it helped me. That's how I feel the information made me a better, safer, more in agreement and more responsible driver. I certainly did not mean to intimate it gave driving advice, I think there's already enough of that out there and here. Again, I didn't know it would be difficult to navigate the site, I just saw they offered a free download of the booklet - which made sense since mine was givin to me for free. I do apologize for any trouble it caused and will try to be more aware of this in future, if any, posts.
Now I feel I've become quite wordy, which I'd intended in avoiding. However, perhaps I won't be feeding trolls now .

Hey Smeggy,
Not sure if you got that I wasn't blaming accident on breaking the law, I just made the observation that I and everyone else was breaking the law as was the girl who hit me, and it made the accident worse in that her injuries required hospitalization. The point was that after observing this, I delved a little further into my driving record and observations of other drivers and realized if the laws were abided by, the road would be much safer.
As for it being a poor assumption you're a safe driver or not pulled if not breaking the limit, I don't know what you're assuming. If you're assuming you're a bad driver, I would admit abiding the laws won't make you more aware of your environment and other factors that make you a bad driver, but you will certainly be a safer driver than if you were the same bad driver going 80 in a 40, making lane changes without looking etc. Additionally, most bad driving habits result in breaking the law, so if you took the time to know the law it might help you avoid those habits. Further, if you're not breaking the laws, it certainly will make it harder for you to be pulled over. Ie there's no actual reason for it, and it would have to be prejudice or some other factor which it becomes really hard to prove in court: "he looks mean" doesn't get many convictions. And if the officer says you were speeding, it seems like it would be a lot harder to prove it when you weren't, and easier for you to say you weren't when its the truth.
As for me possibly not speeding, I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion without the data you're assuming. My car was a V6, which I have never heard of as affecting speedometer readings, although I have heard wheel diameter can. The wheels were the originals of the car, however, and the ones the speedometer was set for. The industry standard in cars can be incorrect in speedometers by a certain percent and on this I can give you some data, about 4 years ago the speedometer check my dad and I did on it while on a road trip showed it to be about 2.5 miles fast in the upper ranges, about 1 min 2 sec to travel the 1 mile distance at 60 mph cruise control. Additionally, the ticket I received in 2003 showed my speedometer to be pretty close to that margin of error when compared to the officer's noted speed so I am pretty sure it was still accurate at the time of the accident. This would mean it would have had to read 67.5 at most to be within legal limits, and it was around 75 before the incident, and I was keeping up with traffic, so yes we were all speeding.
Again however, it's hard to say if that had a part in the accident, but we'll see in the police report in a few weeks: I'm certainly not educated in the forensics of it.
I appreciate you trying in your way to absolve me, but I've actually taken responsibility for the speeding and being told I wasn't was like being told I was wrong for taking that responsibility. It might be that you drive a bit over the speed limit and justify it with that reasoning, but I'm sure you could correct this easily by finding out just how inaccurate your speedometer is and correcting for that.

'Sfunny, all the accidents I had in my younger days happened within the speed limit.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I can tell you exactly what Smeggy is 'assuming', and his 'assumption' is actually fact.
There are plenty of residential roads where I live where the law says you can drive at a maximum of 30mph. However you would have to be insane to contemplate travelling at even half that speed due to the width and the surroundings.
Similarly, we also have a few roads where there is a 40mph limit in place, and this is pitifully short of being a reasonable speed for the conditions.


The engine type has no bearing on your speedometer accuracy, maybe it's time you looked at how speedometers actually work.
ALL speedometers overread, and the faster you go, the more they overread. For example, when I am doing a true 30mph (as measured by GPS), my speedometer is indicating 33mph. When I am travelling at a true 70mph, my speedometer is actually registering 77mph.



Same for me Pete.
My first 'off' when I started riding bikes on public roads was at a mere 10mph. My last car accident was in 2001 and I was travelling at between 20-25mph when some dozy tart (who was on the wrong side of the road) decided to emerge from a side turning straight in to my path.
There was no way I was going to stop in time, as I was only 5 metres (if that) from the junction that she emerged from. Damage was minimal of course as I still had time to stamp on the brake pedal and reduce my speed, but the short stopping distance she restricted me to meant that there was still a collision.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Rand,

please don't take offence if I'm wrong about this, but it sounds to me as though you blame yourself for the woman's injuries because you were exceeding the speed limit even though, as you say yourself, she was also speeding. i would suggest the accident may have happened anyway of neither driver had been speeding, but any injuries would have been much less severe had she been wearing her seatbelt.
i was a passenger in an accident in october, both cars doing about 40mph (in a 60). the cars hit each other on the right front corner. as it was, the only 'injuries' were a bit of whiplash for me, seabelt bruising and minor whiplash for my partner who was driving and a minor airbag friction burn for the other driver. Had i not been wearing my seatbelt, id had gone through the windscreen with somewhat more severe consequences.
this is not to take away from your own accident, merely another experience.
it is very easy after any accident to say 'what if?' for so many different aspects and very easy to blame yourself for any part of your behaviour that may not have been perfect. but this is life, and sh*t happens.
Focussing entirely on speed is not going to achieve whaty i think you want. Perhap you might find more benefit in extra IAM or ROSPA training to provide the additional safety margin when driving at your usual speeds, or perhaps a track day to show that in the correct circumstances very high speed can still be very safe. Either of these can also help to restore some confidence in yourself.

You can be a bad (and dangerous) driver "making lane changes without looking etc." doing 40 in a 40 too, while given the right circumstances it may be possible to safely do 80 in a 40..
Unfortunately the current policy is focusing purely on speeding giving out the message that as long as you don't break a speed limit you're a safe driver..
Hence more people are being caught over the drink-drive limit etc. - as long as they don't break a speed limit they are unlikely to be stopped..
Your original post said speed of 70-75.. With a legal speedo the real speed can be 58-70 for an indicated 70, and 62.5-75 for an indicated 75.. Therefore "speeding" probably had little or nothing to do with your accident..

While I can't knock you for saying "Don't do anything illegal" be aware that there are some daft laws that mean some odd things are still technically illegal (eating mince pies on xmas day, not turning up for archery practice each Sunday etc.)

Hi Rand. Thanks for your reply. I would like to add or clarify what’s already been said by others.


I agree, rules like, mirror signal manoeuvre, don’t tailgate, keep left, don’t drive under the influence, don’t drive an unroadworthy vehicle, being aware and considerate, drive at an appropriate speed….. I would hazard a guess that at least some of the drivers in your unfortunate event were not complying with some of those mentioned above. I don’t doubt that higher speeds amplified the consequences, but surely the best way to minimise damage is accident prevention and that drivers following the rules above would have gone a long way to ensuring so?


Drivers know the relevant law here, but the trick is whether it’s reasonable.
Every driver knows the sign for a speed limit and speed camera, but much fewer know the warning sign for a slippery road – simply abiding by the laws may not help you on such a road.


Ideally I would like to agree, but today’s over-reliance on automated policing means that one can break a multitude of other driving laws and escape detection. This is not proportional enforcement.


Speedos must overread between 0 to V/10 + 6.25mph (source opsi.gov.uk), which should be adhered when leaving the factory, but some are liable to drift further over time due to factors like mechanical wear, malfunction or ambient conditions.


That doesn’t make sense, you got the additional tolerance reversed.


I’m not trying to absolve anyone; I’m merely trying to get to the truth of the matter. Exceeding a limit within itself does not cause accidents; it may be a factor and has bearing on the consequences, but it’s never the root cause - yet the authorities are painting the picture that it is and, unfortunately, many believe them without question.