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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 19:52 
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Daily Mail Online

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Pensioner fined £50 for feeding pigeons
An outraged pensioner told yesterday how she was fined £50 for feeding crumbs to pigeons.

Beryl Withers, 81, had just finished eating a sandwich during a lunchtime shopping trip when she emptied out the remaining crumbs for the birds.

But as she moved to put the empty packet in the bin she was stopped by two council wardens who told her she had broken the law.

The yellow-coated wardens demanded her name and address and warned her she faced a maximum £2,000 fine.

The incident happened in Nottingham, recently branded the most crime-plagued city in Britain and notoriously overrun by guns and drugs.

Last night dismayed Mrs Withers, the daughter of a policeman, condemned the authorities for targeting pensioners while criminals run wild on the streets.

The retired antiques dealer said: "I have never put a foot wrong in this country in all my days. I have paid all my taxes and have never been to prison.

"I have no doubt that if my father could somehow know what was happening to his daughter he would be spinning in his grave.

"It would break his heart to see the powers-that-be concentrating on defenceless people like me instead of tackling proper crime.

"I don't know what has happened to the law and its priorities. I feel completely outraged by what has happened to me."

Mrs Withers served in the Women's Royal Naval Service during the Second World War and skippered a 75ft-long motorboat delivering mail to British warships in the English Channel.

She was stopped by the wardens outside the city's Victoria shopping centre last week.

A flock of around half a dozen birds were loitering nearby and Mrs Withers said it "seemed natural2 to share the crumbs of the chicken sandwich with them.

"They started to peck the crumbs off the pavement", she said.

"When I moved off I even made sure to put the bag in a waste bin, but I had only gone a few steps when these two yellow-coats appeared.

They said "That's a £2,000 fine' and asked for my name, address and age. I didn't even know at first what they were talking about.

"Then they said I would be hearing from them. I was so angry that I marched straight to the nearest police station to make a complaint.

"I told them they had more than enough crime in Nottingham to tackle instead of having council wardens picking on old ladies like me.

"There's no two ways about it - crime and violence are rife here. You would think they would have enough on their hands dealing with that."

The three times widowed pensioner received her fixed penalty notice two days later, with a letter declaring she had been "seen emptying the contents of a bag to feed the pigeons".

The pensioner, who paid the fine yesterday, said she had previously been fit and healthy, but the stress of the incident had brought on several nosebleeds.

Mrs Withers' father, Jack Wright, was a policeman in Nottingham all his life and eventually retired as one of its most respected inspectors.

Nottingham City Council stood by the fine, saying the crumbs were classed as litter and littering was an offence met by a fine.

Environment spokesman Brian Grocock said: "Food waste makes up a significant proportion of the litter cleaned up by the council every day.

"Dropping food, even if to feed pigeons, represents a real health risk. It attracts rats."

In the past three years the council has issued more than 2,000 fines for dropping litter, an offence that carries a maximum fine of 2,000 pounds.

In May, research compiled using police statistics and population data by the Reform think-thank showed that Nottingham had 115.5 crimes for every 1,000 residents, four times the level of the safest towns.

Already dubbed Gun City, it also had the highest number of murders per 100,000 population, with 5.21, and featured in the worst five towns or cities for robbery, burglary, assault, rape and gun crime.


Well you can't get money from real criminals :(

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The pensioner, who paid the fine yesterday, said she had previously been fit and healthy, but the stress of the incident had brought on several nosebleeds.


I hope someone gives the two wardens a nosebleed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:06 
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I admit .. I loathe pigeons. Messy and nasty.

I admit to being afraid of gulls .. as my wife and self parked up at Llandudno and bought fish and chips. We sat in car and it was like being in that Hitchcock film based on a short story by Daphne Du Maurier. :shock: Thery just descended on our car and pecked at the sun roof :shock: I admit that this did worry me and I am not that easily scared :shock:

So I think that if you encourage these rather mercenary birds - it's asking for bother and so I adopt the rather unusual view of supporting a fine which encourages a pest like a pigeon or gull. :shock: :shock: :shock:

I accept that fining a pensioner for feeding the birds does seem extreme and bizarrre .. but I cannot define the rather unusual fear my wife and I felt that day on the North Welsh coast. There was just something " nasty " about the way those gulls descended on our car and pecked at all windows :yikes:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:13 
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I would have waited a few moments then asked the wardens "where's your evidence? :P "


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:16 
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I don’t like pigeons myself, however where there any signs to say don’t feed the birds, I doubt it. It’s not only that look at the anguish caused to this old lady, wouldn’t a gentle warning have been better? It's a good job they don't work in Trafalgar Square.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:44 
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This just an extremely sad example of a malaise that infects our society, i.e. an emphasis on enforcement rather than prevention, and a disregard for the need for people respect legislation rather than merely comply with it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:49 
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next week thell charge her with animal cruilty when te pideons starve to death :wink:

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 20:51 
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What power do these vultures have? I presume they are nothing but jumped up traffic wardens? If they ask for your name and address and you refuse to give it to them, what can they realistically do?*

*I wouldn't be suprised in the current PC world that the defendant would then be the recipient of a custodial sentence and an ASBO.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 21:34 
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Dixie wrote:
I don’t like pigeons myself, however where there any signs to say don’t feed the birds, I doubt it. It’s not only that look at the anguish caused to this old lady, wouldn’t a gentle warning have been better? It's a good job they don't work in Trafalgar Square.


Ken has banned all the bird seed sellers and employs a full-time falconer (no, not the LCJ!) to chase away the pigeons, and last time I looked there weren't any there.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 21:50 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
What power do these vultures have? I presume they are nothing but jumped up traffic wardens? If they ask for your name and address and you refuse to give it to them, what can they realistically do?*


I believe there was previously no requirement to tell them, you could walk away, but this was fixed recently.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 22:07 
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prof beard wrote:
This just an extremely sad example of a malaise that infects our society, i.e. an emphasis on enforcement rather than prevention, and a disregard for the need for people respect legislation rather than merely comply with it.


It's worse.

- We have forgotten common sense
- We have forgotten that the spirit of the law rather than the letter is more important
- We have given too much authority to those without the wit to wield it sensibly
- We have forgotten to respect the normal responsible behaviour of citizens

And this case highlights that we can no longer manage to define 'litter'. I expect the jobsworths will be fining trees in autumn.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 22:28 
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Don't get me started on this one.

Got an old scroat that keeps putting bread out for the pigeons. Now we have got dozens coming down. Every day I am cleaning bird shit off the cars. I now have to jet wash the roof of the car port.….Grrrrrrrrrrr

I wish the old fart would get busted for it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 23:21 
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Quite a good response, if you do come up against some jobsworth who says "I don't make the rules". is to say "no, you merely enforce them without flexibility, initiative or intelligence". Rather like these two wardens by the sound of it. I mean, I'm not a fan of pigeons either and I'd never feed them, but surely a quiet word would have been more appropriate?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 09:38 
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Until the law is applied even handed and fairly, the generally law abiding will feel aggrieved. Where the law becomes absolute for one and not the other, then again a conflict arises.

I agree that in this case, a warning would probably sufficed, but we have effectively made activities that were perfectively normal a few years ago both illegal, fineable and absolute.

It also shows how compliant people are by giving their names to these uniformed morons; I have had this with a PCSO who stopped me in the street for no reason other than to ask where I was going and what I was doing; he was told firmly to get lost and was left standing there like a pillock as I continued on my way. They have no power and the sooner people understand that, the better.

"Just following orders","Just doing my job"; Isn't it ironic, that the worst people in history used the same lame excuses when they know that what they're doing, is plain wrong!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:06 
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In this case, I must side with the "litter wardens" and utter a hope that they are redeployed to Cornwall as soon as possible. We have a real problem with gulls, which attack hundreds each year. Mostly, the gulls get away with the sandwich, oggie, or chips they were raiding but several locals and tourist get injured each year. The reason why the gulls are such a problem is because the tourists throw out the left-overs of their sandwiches etc. before dutifully throwing the bag in the bin.

IOW, that pensioner's crass actions were worse than if she'd thrown the crumbs in the bin and then thrown the bag on the floor. By some reactions in this thread, the country needs to wake up to the consequences of feeding wildlife - perhaps instead of fining the offenders they should make them watch videos of victims having gouges pecked out of their heads, the carnage that results when dartmoor ponies run out in front of the cars they've grown to associated with food, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:13 
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willcove wrote:
In this case, I must side with the "litter wardens" and utter a hope that they are redeployed to Cornwall as soon as possible. We have a real problem with gulls, which attack hundreds each year. Mostly, the gulls get away with the sandwich, oggie, or chips they were raiding but several locals and tourist get injured each year. The reason why the gulls are such a problem is because the tourists throw out the left-overs of their sandwiches etc. before dutifully throwing the bag in the bin.

IOW, that pensioner's crass actions were worse than if she'd thrown the crumbs in the bin and then thrown the bag on the floor. By some reactions in this thread, the country needs to wake up to the consequences of feeding wildlife - perhaps instead of fining the offenders they should make them watch videos of victims having gouges pecked out of their heads, the carnage that results when dartmoor ponies run out in front of the cars they've grown to associated with food, etc.


No, no, no.

POSSIBLY we need laws, rules or recommendations about feeding wildlife.

But this old lady was not fined for feeding wildlife. She was fined for littering. Whatever she was doing, she was NOT littering within the normal range of definitions of the term.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 13:08 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 19:22 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
No, no, no.

POSSIBLY we need laws, rules or recommendations about feeding wildlife.

But this old lady was not fined for feeding wildlife. She was fined for littering. Whatever she was doing, she was NOT littering within the normal range of definitions of the term.

She was littering both in terms of the legal definition of the term, and within the general understanding of the term. What else should you call throwing one's leftovers to the ground? You eat an apple and throw the core on the ground, it's littering; you eat an orange or banana and throw the peel on the ground, it's littering; you eat a sandwich and throw the crust on the ground, it's littering!

I'll grant that she was acting with good intentions - so perhaps we need to re-educate people fast about the problems associated with feeding wildlife. Notwithstanding that, people have been injured and perhaps killed (colliding with a pony is no joke) because of the actions of people like her and if more was done to make throwing crumbs out socially unacceptable it would (IMO) be a good thing.

She broke the law in a way that could put others in danger. Perhaps the punishment she got might seem unjust because she is a pensioner - but only because she is a pensioner and I'd wonder whether the same sentiments would have been expressed if the miscreant had been thirty-something.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 19:35 
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willcove wrote:
She was littering both in terms of the legal definition of the term, and within the general understanding of the term. What else should you call throwing one's leftovers to the ground?

I utterly disagree. She threw the food on the floor knowing that it would be immediately taken away, therefore there was no intent to litter and there would very soon be no litter. It is the same as Person B telling person A to place a bike on the ground such that person B can pick it up and ride it.

Where do we draw the line? Can dog owners no longer feed treats to their pets when walking in the park? It's the same scenario!

Throwing bread to birds is not the same as:

willcove wrote:
You eat an apple and throw the core on the ground, it's littering; you eat an orange or banana and throw the peel on the ground, it's littering


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 19:44 
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I agree with Smeggy entirely. Yet again, what used to be a natural and innocent pastime has all in but name been criminalised by jobsworths a apparachiks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 20:48 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Now , I fear the worst. Last year we did some work in the rear garden , and put out plants in pots. After a week or so a lot of them got eaten by slugs/snails etc.We put out pellets like everone else. Then i noticed that we have a bird population - which feasts on slugs etc. Natures remedy , says me - encourage the birds, hopefully Blackbirds ,thrushes etc will come in and clean up the pests.
So i put up a bird table of sorts -

Looking at this , i now fully expect jobsworth to invade my garden , to accuse me of littering - from this not beyond the bounds of possibility ????

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