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 Post subject: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 23:21 
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I'm thinking of replacing my old CRT monitor with one of them there new-fangled flat screen ?"TFT"? monitors. There seems to be a very wide range of prices for very similar looking screens. Does anyone have any advice as to what to look for in the specification?


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 23:40 
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Basically go for the best resolution, fastest response time and smallest pixel size you can for any given price point :) Or alternatively just go and buy a Samsung in the size you want as they are pretty much the best value for money with excellent screen quality. You also need to check out what the dead pixel policy is as it depends on the manufacturer and the price as to how many and of what type are tolerated. Generally an 8ms or less response time is what you are looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:49 
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I bought my eldest son a 19 inch monitor from PLAY.COM for £89.00 delivered next day. He is gaming on it, and says its first class - not sure if they have any left - it's a BENQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:59 
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Go to the shop and ask to see the monitor working.
Check with a dark screen display and look for the obvious LIVE [pixels (the ones on all the time...)
Then, with a bright screen display, look for the dead ones. The most annoying are the red live ones....

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 13:41 
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My Friend and I both have Iiyama monitors, which are excellent.

The connection protocal for the connection in to the back of your PC began changing from VGA (rounded with slightly angled-in sides) to DVI (rectangular with lots of pins) a few years ago. If you have a VGA connection at present, you may need an adapter if the new monitor has a DVI connection only. I'm skating on thin knowledge ice here, but ask someone who knows before buying..


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 14:59 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
My Friend and I both have Iiyama monitors, which are excellent.

The connection protocal for the connection in to the back of your PC began changing from VGA (rounded with slightly angled-in sides) to DVI (rectangular with lots of pins) a few years ago. If you have a VGA connection at present, you may need an adapter if the new monitor has a DVI connection only. I'm skating on thin knowledge ice here, but ask someone who knows before buying..

It is a pin adapter. The DVI connector has all the pins required for a VGA connection plus two digital channels!
That does assume that the pins are actually connected at one end or the other. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 16:01 
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Ziltro wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
My Friend and I both have Iiyama monitors, which are excellent.

The connection protocal for the connection in to the back of your PC began changing from VGA (rounded with slightly angled-in sides) to DVI (rectangular with lots of pins) a few years ago. If you have a VGA connection at present, you may need an adapter if the new monitor has a DVI connection only. I'm skating on thin knowledge ice here, but ask someone who knows before buying..

It is a pin adapter. The DVI connector has all the pins required for a VGA connection plus two digital channels!
That does assume that the pins are actually connected at one end or the other. :)


Slightly more complicated than that, DVI connectors can carry just analogue (uncommon), just digital or both. For extra complication they can also carry two channels of either or both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

What you need to look for is a monitor that list VGA compatibility in its features, most (at least last time I looked up to a year ago) will have a vga connector if they are compatible. What may not come with them is a VGA to VGA cable as most PCs use DVI outputs now and not supplying one keeps the price down a bit.

If you spot a few in your price range you are interested in I am happy to check if you want to send me the links.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 16:49 
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Our Samsung Syncmaster 940ux are supplied with usb and dvi connectors. It makes it very easy to dock a laptop to mouse, monitor and keyboard + printerand become a desktop by connecting one usb lead. usb video drivers supplied but you might require an old monitor to load them :lol:
£170 for 19" (ouch)

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 13:19 
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I'm going to disagree with some of the comments here, especially the smallest pixel size comment.

Unlike CRTs, LCD monitors have a "Native Resolution", typically between 1280x1024 and 1920x1200 depending on how much you pay and whether you got a widescreen one or not. They look like crap at any other resolution.

So if at the native resolution the text is too small for you to read, it's going to cause you problems. I am absolutely sick of going into customer sites and having them complain about the picture quality of our imaging software only to find they're running a 1280x1024 LCD at 1024x768. So I fix the problem by fixing their resolution and then they complain that the text is too small! On the flip side, I managed to get us a contract supplying Dell LCDs to a company at a premium, even though we're more expensive than buying them direct from Dell, because the ones we supplied "Looked much clearer" than the Dell ones. The only difference is that I turn up, plug them in and set their computer to 1280x1024. They're the exact same LCDs!

It's made even worse by the fact that if you enable large fonts in Windows XP (or earlier) many applications don't display correctly any more because they were written by idiots who only tested them under small fonts.


So, my advice, go to somewhere like PC World (for god's sake don't actually buy anything) and have a look at their computer systems, make a note of the screen size and the resolution it's set to until you find a combination that you like the look of, then go out and buy a screen of that size.


The next thing to consider is what type of panel you want to get. This depends on what's important to you. The most common factors that bother people are viewing angles and response time.

Viewing angle is simple, it's how far to one side you can get and still see the image. TN-film panels have the worst viewing angles. IPS panels tend to be a lot better.

Response time is more complicated, basically it's down to the delay between the computer requesting that the picture change and the LCD actually doing that. Even the slowest LCDs these days are in the 60ms range which is absolutely fine for normal internet/email/word processing type usage. However if you play games at a competitive level then this delay puts you at a major disadvantage (however if you play games at a competitive level I'd expect you to already know this!). Predictably TN-film panels have the best response times, IPS not so good.

The last thing that bothers some people is the finish on the front of the panel, some are glossy some are matte. Glossy gives more vibrant colours. Matte is, well, less reflective. Everyone has their own preferences. I prefer matte as I am sat here with a window behind me with the sun shining on the monitor. The matte finish makes this much less annoying than my old CRT.


As for what to get. Have a look at the Dell range. They make some really nice LCDs and they're usually quite cheap. They also regularly run special offers. Alternatively go back to PC World, try out their LCDs, then buy the one you like from somewhere else!

I'm currently using a 26" Hazro LCD. These are nice monitors, though not the cheapest by any means. They're made in the UK too apart from the panel itself which is a H-IPS panel made my LG. The response times are incredible for an IPS panel at around something like 4ms and the viewing angle is pretty damn good too. Plus the all aluminium casing is very stylish if you care about such things. It seems to be the ideal compromise between being good for gaming and still being able to have people look at what you're doing (I suspect this may be the other reason why gamers like TN panels :D)

If you can tell me what you'll be using your computer for I can probably come up with a more specific recommendation.

As for the DVI issue. Some of the stuff above is overcomplicating things a bit. Basically there are two types of DVI connector that you will encounter on an LCD monitor. DVI-I and DVI-D. the -D variant is digital only, and will require a DVI connector on your computer in order to work. The -I supports both digital and analogue so will work with the older 15pin VGA connector on your computer. Be aware that if you use an analogue path then your display will be being converted from digital to analogue and back to digital again, and picture quality will suffer as a result. If you're not using your computer for gaming then you can get a suitable graphics card for about 30 quid.

Edit: If you're planning to buy a screen with a resolution higher than 1920x1200 then you'll need to ensure your graphics card supports "Dual-link" DVI, and forget trying to use it with a VGA connector as it will look awful. However I doubt this will be an issue for you.

Image


Last edited by Lum on Thu Oct 09, 2008 15:20, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 14:46 
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I would second lum's comments above.

Always run LCDs at native resolution, and remember that the more pixels you have the harder your graphics card has to work, especially with 3d applications and games. Too high a resolution and you may also have to fork out on a better graphics card.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 15:07 
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Master post Lum :clap:

Only thing I would add is that you can get around the text size issue to an extent by changing the dpi settings, I have a laptop with a 1400x1050 resolution 12" widescreen which I set to 120dpi rather than the standard 96. This can occasionally cause issues with some older or less well written bits of software that expect standard setting but most are fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 15:13 
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toltec wrote:
Only thing I would add is that you can get around the text size issue to an extent by changing the dpi settings, I have a laptop with a 1400x1050 resolution 12" widescreen which I set to 120dpi rather than the standard 96. This can occasionally cause issues with some older or less well written bits of software that expect standard setting but most are fine.


That's what I was talking about with the large fonts issue. I disagree with you about how widespread the problem is, glad that it works ok for you though :)

They have corrected this on Vista, but the way it works is still dumb. Basically if the app doesn't declare itself to be "DPI aware" then the entire app window is scaled up and looks just as bad as if you'd set a non native resolution. It's probably the best solution out there apart from getting people to fix their shitty software so I have to credit MS for coming up with it.

I doubt the OP is running Vista anyway, since he still has a CRT ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 23:59 
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Thanks Lum, excellent post, much obliged to you and indeed everyone for the time taken to respond so fully!

Yes, I currently use a CRT monitor and Windows XP. Computer games (for me!) means Space Invaders and Pac-man - although I believe others have been introuced since I last played one as a student in the mid '80s!! I think we can fairly safely say that "gaming" isn't high on my usage list!

The computer is pretty decrepit too. Its a 1.7Gig P4 with half a gig of RAM and whatever onboard graphics came with the motherboard (something by VIA, I think). The current monitor is a 16" Philips. I have a 1024 x 768 desktop at present and that's as small as I'd like to go for comfortable text reading

The reasons I want to change are that (a) I'd like something bigger and (b) this monitor is about 10 years old now and I keep having to switch it on and off again to get the picture to stay square (and loose the weird colours round the edges - I think it's called de-gausing)??

As for usage, it's just normal "typing" for the most part, and a bit of CAD. The latter is the main reason for wanting something bigger (19" would be good)! Also, there are times when it is handy for watching DVDs (like when the kids are fighting over the use of the telly)! Apart from that we don't want anything fantastic although clearly, this PC is "in the twilight of its years" so it would be nice to get something that would be compatible when we get a newer PC one day!

The lead from the PC to this one is an ordinary ?VGA? (trapezium with rounded corners and ?15? pins in a blue coloured block).

I'd prefer NOT to have widescreen - closer to square would be better for the CAD work and, indeed, for the majority of work I do (reading A4 "portrait" orientation documents).


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 13:30 
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Mole wrote:
whatever onboard graphics came with the motherboard (something by VIA, I think). The current monitor is a 16" Philips. I have a 1024 x 768 desktop at present and that's as small as I'd like to go for comfortable text reading

As for usage, it's just normal "typing" for the most part, and a bit of CAD. The latter is the main reason for wanting something bigger (19" would be good)! Also, there are times when it is handy for watching DVDs (like when the kids are fighting over the use of the telly)! Apart from that we don't want anything fantastic although clearly, this PC is "in the twilight of its years" so it would be nice to get something that would be compatible when we get a newer PC one day!

The lead from the PC to this one is an ordinary ?VGA? (trapezium with rounded corners and ?15? pins in a blue coloured block).

I'd prefer NOT to have widescreen - closer to square would be better for the CAD work and, indeed, for the majority of work I do (reading A4 "portrait" orientation documents).


Native resolution on a 19" panel is usually 1280x1024, your onboard graphics will probably handle this but you should check. The 19" panels tend to be somewhat squarer than most so that may suit you, though of course widescreen (may be a problem for your graphics card though) is better for DVD. Were you aware that you can get screens that rotate by 90 degrees to make them better for text work?

From your description you have a VGA output, as mentioned above you could get a basic card with a DVI output quite cheaply, this would be better for CAD as you would get a sharper image. The only problem this opens up the issue of finding a card compatible with your PC.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 14:41 
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Since you're currently using a 16" at 1024x768. Remember that with CRTs the quoted size is the tube size, not the visible area, so in reality you probably have a 15". LCDs they quote the size of the actucal viewable area.

Now we need to work out how many pixels per inch (DPI) a particular size and resolution combination will give you. First we must calculate the horizontal and vertical sizes on your monitor. I'm too lazy to get Pythagoras out, so I use this site to get the horizontal and vertical sizes, then divide them by the resolution. That'll get you the DPI. Lower DPI means bigger text.

Based on a 15" estimate, your monitor is 12" x 9" which is 85.3 DPI

A 19" running 1280x1024 will give you 67.4 DPI horizontal and 89.8 DPI vertical. I hate the 1280x1024 resolution for this reason. 1280x960 is what it should be to keep things square. Every other standard resolution in existence keeps things square. Do not get a 1280 monitor for CAD work!

A 21" running 1400x1050 will give you 83.3 DPI and this would be my personal recommendation for you unless you want to splash out.

A 24" widescreen running 1920x1200 will give you 91.8 DPI, ie. slightly smaller. These monitors are getting rather popular right now.

A 26" widescreen running 1920x1200 will give you 84.73 DPI which is almost identical in size to your current CRT. This would be my second recommendation for you, if you have spare cash. You'll be wanting to get a graphics card to go with this. You don't really need anything fancy for 2D cad.

On widescreen, it's worth noting that LCD monitors are 16:10 not 16:9, so they are squarer than a widescreen TV (it's basically halfway between 16:9 and 14:3) this means that widescreen DVDs will still be letterboxed (albiet only very slightly) and 4:3 DVDs will be pillarboxed (again, only slightly). It also means it's not as bad as you might be expecting from a widescreen monitor. You quickly get used to being able to have two documents at once, and if working in an app with umpteen billion toolbars you start shoving them on the left or right edge to gain some vertical space. Or as Toltec stated, you can rotate some monitors, and if your graphics card supports it, you can have a 1200x1920 resolution which is great for word processing and desktop publishing work.

It will be possible to fit a new graphics card. If you can take the side (or top) off, and tell me if you have one of these (the brown one) which is an AGP slot. You should also have at least one of the white ones which are PCI slots. It doesn't matter if you only have PCI, but if you have AGP it is preferable to use it. Though unlikely you may instead of AGP have one of these instead of AGP. It's a PCI Express x16 slot and is better again. The upgrade process is basically turn off the computer, remove the side, remove the little plate covering the hole next to your chosen slot, slide a new card back into the slot and secure it using the screw that was holding that plate in. Then boot into Windows and install some software. Then disable the onboard graphics either within your BIOS (better, but more difficult as it varies per system) or in Windows (easier, I can tell you exactly how to do it)

Edit: Since you are planning to watch DVDs on this. I would probably choose an ATI graphics card. If you do go for 1920x1200 then I'd pick one of the ATI "Radeon HD" range. These will do hardware decoding of BluRay discs so all you'd need to do is add a BluRay drive when the price comes down a bit and you're good to go. Your P4 is not capable of decoding BluRay discs as it is not fast enough. I have an AGP Radeon HD2600 Pro in the living room PC hooked up to the TV and it works great (the one I just linked is the XT version with one VGA and one DVI-I. The Pro has two DVI-Is which is more useful.

My personal setup is a Hazro HZ26Wi 26" @ 1920x1200. I like it because if I sit about a foot away I can read it without my glasses, and with glasses from about 3 foot away it's still comfortably large. This means it lives at the back of my desk allowing more room for keyboard/mouse/tea/biscuits/paperwork. I also have an old cheap (free!) Samsung 15" @ 1024x768 just off to the left hooked up to the same PC using nVidia's DualView feature (though most graphics cards support this these days). I do a pair bit of graphics work using GIMP and I just throw all the GIMP toolbars onto the left hand monitor and run fullscreen on the 26". When not using GIMP I tend to have IRC and Instant messanging on the left monitor and either a game on the right monitor or web+email+two command prompts. You wont want to try this with one CRT and one LCD. It will work just fine but the CRT will start to annoy you after a few days.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 23:16 
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Interesting thread - I used to buy Sony VAIO laptops, until they started shipping the most outrageous monitor sizes for the resolution (ranging from 1280x800 on a 10.4 inch display to 1920x1200 on a 15.4) - I mean you had to have a bloody magnifying glass to see anything, it's no wonder people dropped the res!


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:15 
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Lum wrote:
Response time is more complicated, basically it's down to the delay between the computer requesting that the picture change and the LCD actually doing that. Even the slowest LCDs these days are in the 60ms range which is absolutely fine for normal internet/email/word processing type usage.

I think you are getting confused between monitor frequency and pixel response time there Lum.
Even when LCD's first came out, their pixel response time was nowhere near as high as 60ms (even a slow moving image would look awful if it was).

All LCD panels operate at 60Hz, however the pixel response time can have quite a bearing on what you see (the faster the pixel response time, the less chance of "shadowing").

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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 18:17 
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Gixxer wrote:
Lum wrote:
Response time is more complicated, basically it's down to the delay between the computer requesting that the picture change and the LCD actually doing that. Even the slowest LCDs these days are in the 60ms range which is absolutely fine for normal internet/email/word processing type usage.

I think you are getting confused between monitor frequency and pixel response time there Lum.
Even when LCD's first came out, their pixel response time was nowhere near as high as 60ms (even a slow moving image would look awful if it was).

All LCD panels operate at 60Hz, however the pixel response time can have quite a bearing on what you see (the faster the pixel response time, the less chance of "shadowing").


I was getting confused, but not with refresh rate. I was refering to the overall input lag which, of course, includes the pixel response time. I refer you to this handy graph from a recent review on tftcentral to back up my point ;)

And no the really early panels did have a response time around the one second mark and yes they looked awful. Trust me on this as I spent enough of my summer holidays typing up homework on a 286 laptop with a black and white (actually blue and light blue) LCD display that my mum liberated from work as it was being thrown away due to being crap. Obviously this wasn't a TFT, but a much earlier LCD technology (check out the response time of an 80s LCD calculator!)

Fun fact: The "pointer trails" feature in Windows is actually there because old LCDs had such terrible response times that they didn't get chance to draw a moving mouse pointer before it had gone again, as a result the mouse became invisible when you moved it. By keeping a copy of the mouse pointer around for a bit, the LCD had chance to actually display the thing, meaning you could see what you were doing!

Oh and there's a few oddball LCDs out there that operate at a speed other than 60Hz. I can see such devices becoming popular with the insaner elements of the home cinema crowd because 24fps looks a bit nasty on a 60Hz LCD or plasma, but is fine on a 72Hz one.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 00:41 
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Ok, thanks for all the advice so far!

I was struck by these as looking like incredibly good value:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-20-Viewsonic- ... 240%3A1308

Anyone had any experience of Viewsonic?

Although I wasn't originally keen on widescreen, I am warming to the suggestion that I could use it to put the toolbars at the sides of the screen and / or work on two text documents side by side!

The next question is whether my graphics card can handle it. Currently, when I look at the resolution in the control panel settings, 1280 x 1064 is the best it offers. Will this ratio automatically change if it detects a widescreen format monitor has been connected? If not, won't the picture be distorted? Also, the refresh rate is set to 85Hz. Is it correct to say that the maximum resolution that the graphics card can handle will be the same with a TFT monitor, or should I be looking for a new graphics card?

Also, if I wanted to use that monitor with my work laptop when I'm at home, via the docking station, would the laptop need a graphics card? It's a pretty recent Dell Latitude but when I look on it's control panel, the maximum option I get is 1024 x 768! Surely it can handle more than that?

Ta!


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 Post subject: Re: Flat screen monitors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 09:01 
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Windows only makes resolutions & refresh rates available that the connected monitor can handle, once you connect the new monitor & Windows installs it then everything will work just fine.

You have no need to start upgrading graphics cards, and you can forget refresh rates where TFT's are concerned (they run at 60Hz, and that is it).


PS
I'm surprised you are only getting 1024x768 on your Dell Latitude, what one is it?

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