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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:45 
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If it's not just empty words :roll:

“He insisted that health and safety legislation had 'noble origins' and had done much to make Britain's workplaces among the safest in the world”. “But he said it was clear something had gone 'seriously wrong'”. :yesyes:

“The rulebooks keep getting thicker. The restrictions keep getting sillier,” Mr Cameron said. “In Britain there is just a great sense that there are too many rules and regulations and petty bureaucracy that are mucking up people's lives.” :yesyes:


“The impact of this national neurosis should not be underestimated.” :yesyes:

“law after law, rule after rule, in an endless attempt to micromanage and control people's lives”. :yesyes:

“It's not as simple as saying there are some rules we have got to tear down. We have got to get to the causes of petty rules and a culture that has grown up around them”. :yesyes: (Including road safety perhaps :roll: )


“We have got to try to reduce the blame culture, have a more realistic attitude towards risk. That goes for all of us. We all have to accept that there are risks in life”. :yesyes:


“'over-the-top' health and safety rules”


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rosis.html

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:11 
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Big Tone wrote:
If it's not just empty words :roll: l


Well, they were spoken by a politician :(

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:34 
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From the standpoint of someone who is never going to be at risk, apart from the odd terrorist.
The vast majority of businesses pay no attention to health, safety or welfare at work.
Which is why we have nearly 300 people killed every year in avoidable accidents. And why we have very many times more than that "killed" by industrial disease (nearly 6000 every year from asbestosis....another totally avoidable disease)
The death toll makes sad reading.
I was in a "workshop" two weeks ago.....doors shut (noise complaints)....welding fumes, dust from grinders and no heating (2.5C).....I would like to say I had never seen anything like it....unfortunately I see many like it.
I would like to say it just shows a small disinterest in workers health....unfortunately it show a criminal disregard for workers health...for money.
I would like to think a labour government would think more of workers health....unfortunately it is the labour government that has decreased H&S funding to the extent that over 400 H&S inspectors no longer have jobs.
From the 1997 (tory gov) health and safety inspection rate of premises once every 13 years, we have now gone down to one inspection every 30 years.
From the point of view of the health service (a very health and safety conscious organisation) things are very much better than in industry: What there is remaining.
AND the "statistics" are misleading because only **** 50% **** of accidents that HAVE to be reported BY LAW are actually reported....with employers KNOWN to have been "dropping" injured employees off at A&E and telling them to say nothing of where it happened.
Apart from accidents there is the small problem of criminal complicity from employers towards employing people on benefits (well, not small....quite large really)
Have a read through the Health and safety executive prosecutions pages.
Sad reading.
What Mr Cameroon and his compatriots want is not a reduction in the legislation, it is a return to the early 20th century....probably even to sending children back up the chimneys.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:59 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
If it's not just empty words :roll: l


Well, they were spoken by a politician :(

I was trying not to be cynical but yes, you’re right. Business as usual… :cry: I thought the sentiments were nice though. I don't know who writes his speeches but whoever it is, s/he's in touch even if the top dogs aren't.

I remember some posters here saying if Labour get in again they're leaving the country. For myself, I'll see what happens. I'm sure it'll be the same circus in the same tent though.

Jom :) I appreciate where you’re coming from and I’m all for H&S. It’s just that the pendulum has swung so far the other way IMHO, so I feel quite ‘connected’ with what Cameron says. I’d like to see a responsible common sense approach where apprentice hairdressers’ can use real scissors and someone actually makes an effort in Government to find out the real reason why we have so many KSI on our roads.

I could flood the thread with examples of ‘OTT’ regulation which impinges unnecessarily in my life. Having installed a new toilet recently and discovered, after the event, that the waste pipe I sawed through was asbestos concrete I take full responsibility for my own stupidity. (I’ve tended to think of, and look out for, asbestos roofs not waste pipes :stupidme: ). Do we need another law preventing anyone doing DIY next? Slippery slope?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 13:41 
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Big Tone wrote:
Do we need another law preventing anyone doing DIY next?


It has already started, Part P, building control needed for new windows...

Ok, so the latter does not stop you from putting in your own windows, it just makes changing a single window yourself uneconomic.

I understand Jomukuk's point, however if employers are ignoring H&S rules the current trend of adding more will not solve the problem. A simpler set of rules would hopefully cut down on the paperwork and be easier to follow and enforce.

Tricky subject to find balance on though, just like road safety!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 14:10 
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Cameron might retard the onward march of the Bully State to some degree, but does anyone seriously believe he will roll it back to any significant extent?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 14:14 
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I agree Toltec, it is a tricky one and I don’t want to seem anti H&S because I’m certainly not. But the plethora of petty regulations which, in the words of Dixie, ‘weaken necessary ones’ are making a mockery of good Health and Safety legislation. I think, or thought, that’s what Cameron was saying.

Looking through some of the cases Jom I see what you mean. But what strikes me is H&S isn’t preventing much that couldn’t, and shouldn’t, be prevented by simply employing competent people with adeqaute training. An idiot will always find a way of hurting himself or others.

Taking the first one I looked at as an example, where someone got hit by a runaway industrial machine, if people don’t know that you should park it properly and safely I very much doubt that they will change, or be more aware, because of H&S. What’s more, even without it they would surely still be liable and sued? If anything, surely it demonstrates that H&S didn’t make a difference in that case.

It smacks a little of, dare I say it, speeding: Someone kills a pedestrian through speeding in the wrong place, time, situation so they slap a restriction on speed everywhere which captures the majority of safe drivers, not the stupid and dangerous ones. So what did that achieve?

People have infinitely more respect for legislation which makes good sense. The day you start taking it to extremes it loses its effectiveness. Proof? Ask anyone about H&S and they’ll have a story or personal experience of what I’m saying. I know I’ve got loads. Here’s one from earlier in the year for an example..

During the summer I went to a place to eat which is upstairs. It was blazing hot and none of the doors were open to the outside where there is a balcony. :? There was no air conditioning so when I asked if they could please unlock some of the doors and open them I was told they can’t because of H&S, even though there were rails in place to prevent any child from walking off the edge to their death. So we just had to sit there and swelter. I felt sorrier for the hard working staff who are there all day.

Now sure, if someone wanted to they could scale the barrier and jump off. So what if a child pulled a chair up to it and climbed up and over? Well I think I’d question what the parent was doing, not make life difficult for the rest of us.

The sad thing is, anyone who says this just looks like a demon. It is impossible to question H&S just as you cannot question speeding under any circumstances. It's ridiculous and does not get to the root of the problem!

PeterE wrote:
Cameron might retard the onward march of the Bully State to some degree, but does anyone seriously believe he will roll it back to any significant extent?

No :( Not at all sadly. I'm with dcb there I think..

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 14:59 
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jomukuk (slightly truncated by MW) wrote:
The vast majority of businesses pay no attention to health, safety or welfare at work. Which is why we have nearly 300 people killed every year in avoidable accidents. And why we have very many times more than that "killed" by industrial disease (nearly 6000 every year from asbestosis....another totally avoidable disease) The death toll makes sad reading.

I was in a "workshop" two weeks ago.....doors shut (noise complaints)....welding fumes, dust from grinders and no heating (2.5C).....I would like to say I had never seen anything like it....unfortunately I see many like it. I would like to say it just shows a small disinterest in workers health....unfortunately it show a criminal disregard for workers health...for money.

....with employers KNOWN to have been "dropping" injured employees off at A&E and telling them to say nothing of where it happened.

What Mr Cameroon and his compatriots want is not a reduction in the legislation, it is a return to the early 20th century....probably even to sending children back up the chimneys.

I am an employer in manufacturing and I know a lot of other local employers. I absolutely do not recognise the picture painted by this post. Modern employers take massive pains to make the working environment safe. They want to retain their staff and look after them accordingly. If what you say is true then this shows that the bosses at these premises are incompetent.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 15:24 
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Not incompetent: cash-conscious
You cannot have an employer who has his own holiday home in the south of France, several new cars (one for each family member) who is incompetent.
Most employers do make time, and spend money, to comply with areas of the H&S act (warning signs, boots, eye protection etc)
But where they fail is that they do not put the measures into practice. You do not issue eye protection to an employee and then sit back and let him/her not wear them. The issuing came after a risk assessment (mandatory) showed a risk. if so, then the employer is clearly in the wrong and is liable.
Refusing to use the equipment provided is gross misconduct and can lead to instant dismissal.
In the case of the excessively hot premises they had not only failed to correctly assess the risk of falling from the balcony (they probably never even looked at the risk, just decided it was "risky") they also failed to assess the risk of working in excessive temperatures http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/temperature.htm
As you can see, the "regulations" as to workplace temperatures are a bit "vague".
But then, SO ARE THE VAST MAJORITY OF REGULATIONS IN HEALTH AND SAFETY.
MOST of the press stories about "elf 'n safety" are deliberately trouble-making. They KNOW that the story they are printing is wrong....but since when did the press worry too much about accuracy ?
You are equating the press stories about "bonkers conker" with the real life safety....that which matters to workers...."bonkers conkers" is councils and schools going way over the top and not about the regulations....
And Mr Cameron KNOWS THIS....the same way the PRESS know it.
But in one case it makes good politics (and will enrich those who really do not like spending a penny on any safety at all) and in the other it sells 'papers.
And in any case, if/when he gets into power he will discover that many of the regulations (bland and non-specific though they are) are also enshrined in european directives (and before you say anything, many of those directives just enforce already existing uk legislation) and are unalterable by the UK government (who just sack the inspectors to get around the requirement for inspection of premises)

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 19:14 
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jomukuk wrote:
Most employers do make time, and spend money, to comply with areas of the H&S act (warning signs, boots, eye protection etc) But where they fail is that they do not put the measures into practice. You do not issue eye protection to an employee and then sit back and let him/her not wear them. The issuing came after a risk assessment (mandatory) showed a risk. if so, then the employer is clearly in the wrong and is liable. Refusing to use the equipment provided is gross misconduct and can lead to instant dismissal.

So, you think that if a responsible employer does a risk assessment, issues PPE to the employee, provides training and requires them to use it, then the employer is responsible if the employee wilfully fails to use the equipment provided? With respect, this is the wrong way round. Employees have a legal responsibility to co-operate with employers in matters of H&S and it is in their own interests to do so.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 19:57 
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PeterE wrote:
Cameron might retard the onward march of the Bully State to some degree, but does anyone seriously believe he will roll it back to any significant extent?


Well if he doesn't convince me that he will roll it back, he will not get my vote.

The Conservative party has had my vote in every General Election since October 1964 - but there will be no more votes from me unless i'm convinced they will do what I want to see done. They've got some work to do!

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 20:21 
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With respect: If the employer issues ppe to an employee and then sits back and knowingly lets the employee NOT use it, then BOTH are at fault. If the employee has an accident/injury as a result of not using the provided equipment and he/she can show that the employer KNEW he/she was not using it/using it properly, then you have the basis for litigation (with reduced compensation)
And as for CON/LIB-DEM/LAB rolling back the state....not going to happen.
All are bit players on a large stage with no power.
You can vote for who you like, in the end you're voting for clones and clots. The state exists in separation from democracy (if that exists at all)
Face it, the entire race is going downhill fast. Falling fertility (estimated 100Kyears 'til too low to maintain the race).....too much politics not enough humanity.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/sept08.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/jun08.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/apr08.htm

ETC

ETC

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 22:18 
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Talking your language, which public school did you go to old boy what whwhwh, lets go kill a bloody fox what
more pink gin old chap!!! :x :x :x

were back to the 1950,s public school boys running the country, before we know it buggery will be compulsary!!!

(*sorry about the rant just hate the BSTrds)
Also dawns on me that its these Tory (hang em flog em types) that are speeding about at breakneck speeds trying to bully us sensible drivers so in short.

we have nothing in common with them.
:twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 08:47 
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safedave wrote:
were back to the 1950,s public school boys running the country


Yet it is a fact that the public school Tories such as Macmillan and Douglas--Hume gave us governments that were more benign and society-orientated than those of the grammar school educated Tories Margaret ("there is no such thing as society") Thatcher and John Major.

On the modern political spectrum those 1950's public school educated Tory leaders would be well to the right of the 1970's public school educated New Labour leaders (Blair and Brown)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:23 
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There is some doubt about that.
Many say that Blair is to the right of Thatcher !
And the "no such thing as society" quote is so often misquoted that I cannot fail to put the larger excerpt in.....you will note that she had a quite wide viewpoint, and not all that political:

Quote:
I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand"I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or"I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—" It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it" . That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!"

There is also something else I should say to them:"If that does not give you a basic standard, you know, there are ways in which we top up the standard. You can get your housing benefit."

But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society.There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. And the worst things we have in life, in my view, are where children who are a great privilege and a trust—they are the fundamental great trust, but they do not ask to come into the world, we bring them into the world, they are a miracle, there is nothing like the miracle of life—we have these little innocents and the worst crime in life is when those children, who would naturally have the right to look to their parents for help, for comfort, not only just for the food and shelter but for the time, for the understanding, turn round and not only is that help not forthcoming, but they get either neglect or worse than that, cruelty.

How do you set about teaching a child religion at school, God is like a father, and she thinks"like someone who has been cruel to them?" It is those children you cannot … you just have to try to say they can only learn from school or we as their neighbour have to try in some way to compensate. This is why my foremost charity has always been the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, because over a century ago when it was started, it was hoped that the need for it would dwindle to nothing and over a hundred years later the need for it is greater, because we now realise that the great problems in life are not those of housing and food and standard of living. When we have got all of those, when we have got reasonable housing when you compare us with other countries, when you have got a reasonable standard of living and you have got no-one who is hungry or need be hungry, when you have got an education system that teaches everyone—not as good as we would wish—you are left with what? You are left with the problems of human nature, and a child who has not had what we and many of your readers would regard as their birthright—a good home—it is those that we have to get out and help, and you know, it is not only a question of money as everyone will tell you; not your background in society. It is a question of human nature and for those children it is difficult to say:"You are responsible for your behaviour!" because they just have not had a chance and so I think that is one of the biggest problems and I think it is the greatest sin.





Not really as dispassionate as "no such thing as society" ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:31 
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Reminds me of a certain speech given some time ago by another politician..

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:45 
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Yes.
He got shot, she got stabbed in the back.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:15 
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jomukuk wrote:
Yes.
He got shot, she got stabbed in the back.

No more than she deserved. (He said, biting his tongue). After what her reign did to me I vowed they’d never get my vote, and they won't!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:25 
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I have believed for some time [considerable time] that all political leaders are nothing more than glove puppets.
The trick is to identify the person/s whose hand is shoved up the puppets arse !
With labour it is hard to identify said hand, because of the knives in the back
With conservative the hand is disguised by the silver spoons coming out of said orifice/s.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:44 
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I agree but with the exception of Thatcher who had her head stuck up hers. I’m old enough to remember what it is like under both parties; a choice between being hung or shot. The Libs talk sense but then I guess you can when you’re unelectable.

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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