Safe Speed Forums

No obvious further investigation, perhaps they were waiting the results of some 'behind the scenes' tests before they re-opened the road? Just a thought.

No offence, but adressing your other posts is difficult Wildy because they are personal accounts of events that are obviously close to you and there isn't a lot one can say in response without causing upset or appearing uncaring.

In the grand scheme of things I'm sure we all want a driving culture in which everyone takes their responsibilities seriously, but they don't. Some businesses scrimp on costs and send unserviceable vehicles driven by poorly trained drivers onto the roads. Unroadworthy vehicles are sold on to unsuspecting punters and drivers fail to take their responsibilities seriously making errors that range from the silly and inadvisable to the criminally negligent.
And when someone dies as a result its in dealing with those found to be culpable that I believe we differ. I'm sure we wouldn't want to see a callous scenario where the bits are just swept up so that as few other people are inconvenienced as possible.
But we do live in an age where people believe they can walk away from their responsibilities; marriage, debt and negligence on the roads. Show enough self-pity (aka remorse) and you can walk away from it all.
Not in my book you don't. I tend to be less compromising in these situations; you screw up - you face the consequences.
It just revenge? Don't be daft, any officially sanctioned punishment is societal revenge ( ) against the wrongdoer.
Punishment won't bring back the deceased? Of course it won't, does that mean the criminally negligent should just walk off whilst a family is left bereaved?
So if the time needs to be taken to determine the root cause of any incident and, if necessary, apportion blame so be it. Because the cause will have to be found in order to identify any culprit - the fact that this information may not get fed back into the system to improve roads safety is a different matter.

Ach.. but the in-laws say the other side of road of the High Street was opened. I will see if they get photo. This incident occur about 10 yards from pelican crossing. He did not cross at the pelican... but beyond it. There are some other issues such as new set of lights as well und a new road junction which currently building site but will lead to GP surgery carpark when finished.

The other road was a country lane which also a bus route. Full of pot holes .. but the people who live there could not get home that night. It has four houses along it.. including the animal sanctuary type place. No activity was going on per the animal home folks - or so Ju-Ju was told when she collected her addition to her family.. a rescued mongrel dog with three legs .. which they have called "Jake" (after a Rolf Harris song which seem rather apt )





Ach.. we know what it feel like to lose someone.. but we also say that accepting the accidental nature ist more healing than blaming or wanting someone jailed for life for this. Und what if who caused this also deceased? It does not help his family that much either because they are also victims too.

Und you know.. the if a survivor also person who cause the disaster.. they und theirs also serve a life sentence of guilt (hit/runs /yobs apart .. und even then conscience can hit later in life too) .




We active in campaign to close up loop to allow chavs to buy chuckaways with not one question asked at auction und we may not donate to BRAKE any more as a family .. but we still support their work in bringing rogue hauliers und sellers of heaps to account too. Ist one thing BRAKE do rather well actually und they outpace RoadPeace in this work too.

So we not really "devil incarnate" as far as BRAKE ist concerned either I think they accept that we are a bit "odd" in their world about speed cams

Nein .. but we also need to see the investigations carried out to similar turn around as in Germany und Switzerland .. whereby road ist closed .. but re-opened sooner than here. .. unless they find they need to resurface or replace barriers or a sign in which case ist longer.

For all we know though .. the extended closure may have been down to replacing a crash barrier which crumple in this collision too.

But I have nasty thought that the deceased driver was at fault here. He drove into rear of a lorry. Lorry may have been broken down or trundling along at low speed .. or the mini bus came loose und he lose control when it thud against the cab.

Ist of course wrong to speculate until there has been an inquest .. but it read like that from the article und the photo.

But it not going to help the deceased driver if he was liable.. but will help insurers decide on pay outs ... und here we have the other twist as these were single young men und insurers do not pay as you might think in such circumstances

Ist a funny world. Und money compo does not always make thing right either.




Only in this case .. I think the one who made the mistake ist also deceased.

Und "criminal negligence" ist not quite the same as making an error .. something as simple und routine as not indicating .. perhaps not making the second mirror check und someone also make mistake at same time - which lead to disaster.


Und that ist perhaps why we have so many different offences - from inconsiderate to careless to dangerous.

Only back home .. we do distinguish between "careless" und "negligent" - both of which serious .. only the negigent one carry slightly harsher penalty. You see "negligent" to me as a Swiss educated ist meaning "consistent und persistent negligence or a mistake which was not "careless" but "negligent" und a really bad overtake such as the one which sent a coach off road und killed tourists in Austria .. ist "negligent" as opposed to "careless" which ist more the minor error slip which cause a disaster or accident to occur.

But ... we also have to be aware that far too many of these are down to very illegal as well.. und each time we read paper .. KSI usually result of these illegal thugs than Mr Average in his car.


Mr Average on the other hand get eaten up with guilt und shame und accept his part in this. But that does not mean we lock up in revenge for long periods. It has to be in keeping with what actually happen und evidence provided in these courts .. und witness statements. There ist no excuse for driving whilst knowingly ill or tired or drunk or drugged or without any legal right to do so und such folk can be classed as "criminally negligent" und we have to place a penal system which take this into account too when the cause incidents too. Note ..my choice of word

In case of person who hit me.. he died. His widow was beside herself with grief/guilt mix und whatever her husband decided to do that day - it was not right that she should feel guilt on his part. So we accept that all involved whether liable or joint liability even ..all are victims - including all their families too... und we also have to take that on board too when addressing penalties in a fair minded society.

Ist not easy really - nicht?



But even so .... when all debris ist cleared und we have a main artery road closed for a further several hours after all in-situ evidence has been taken und measured und witness statemennts on spot taken .... then questions must be asked about this practice too.

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Said my bit on this earlier.

We do not ever take a decision to close off a road lightly We do not have that many truly serious incidents here. Not an "accident" We tend to take our role of providing a decent service across the board seriously - and yeah - like every organisation - there's always room for improvement and no one on this planet can afford to be "complacent"

But on the rare occasion we have to.. then we usually have a dedicated team of trained investigating staff at the scene - gathering the evidence and deploy another few teams as resources allow - to at least keep traffic flowing as best we can around the affected areas.

Riggers - Wildy is an unusual young lady with a huge caring heart - She'll try to see the other side for the normal bloke who makes an error and causes a tragedy. But she has experienced something which for most of us is extraordinary and perhaps has some different insights as a result of that.


I've seen this too in a different kind of reality in my career to date as I've had men and women in a state of disbelieving shocked tears at how a failed mirror check caused a very nasty accident with a biker in the past. You have to keep objective though - and you also have to trreat all parties - regardless of any fault with respect and some degree of understanding as well. To do otherwise would not be right - nor would it serve justice should we decide that a charge must be brought for both public interest and justice for the injured parties too.

How long should it realistically take?


Wildy did ask me this rather loaded question as did Andreas after a scrap on a certain site when his complaint about a certain item on a pratnership website made little sense to any of us. After all - the equivalent of a few jumbo disasters takes some clearing. He elicited the responses of a clear up within the hour. when he posted that he'd never been held up by a resultant road closure


Wishful thinking on the cyclist's part. at the time.

. Takes a lot longer than that even for a relatively minor incident by the time we have measured up.. taken photos .. bagged up evidence .. taken any witness statements at the scene. Length of time then does depend on how many actual witnesses we can take statements from. Each sees it slgihtly differently .. but collectively they give us an overall picture - amd best to take some short comments at the site if possible as imagination and reflecting speculation can colour the intitial "take in".

We have always closed roads in reality whilst we investigate cause. We cannot do it if cars are flying past us. Bad enough on the hard shoulder when cars are passing at legal speeds

I suppose that increased volumes leads to longer jams and worse hiold-ups - and this also creates delays in re-opening these roads too as we have to be sure that all this traffic passing the scene will not sweep debris inits wake. It also takse longer for all this traffic to dissipate too. as we can also have colosssal tidal to the point of tsunami brake waves too.

So perhaps the gridlocks may not be just the result of a road closing but I can and do understand frustrations too. I can only say we try to keep things moving as best we can under such circumstances and in this area - we do not keep a road closed for nay longer than necessary. Once all has been removed .. we open up the road. I do not know why those officers parked up as the Mad Doc's sisters saw and complained to me and my GMP brother about at the time


It really does depend as to how far debris scattered.. road surface, photos, measuring each skid mark, checking for other debris and any grease or diesel or oil spill on the surface. Measuring a pot hole if there are some

If possible and we can open up the other carriageway to release the queues caught within the closure zone - we do. If the gridlock is intense - then we do consider the option of a partial open up to keep things moving at a slow speed - and with a police presence to ensure it's adhered to as well. Lancs did this with the Preston patch of the M6 as I kept hearing of a total disaster there last autumn and the Mad Cats were marooned within this themselves as well. When things had been closed for 12 hours with a real nasty - they then decided to open up one carriageway to take all north and south bound traffic to try to clear the gridlock of more than a few miles in each direction.


So I guess I am trying to say.. we do our best to keep things and folk on the move - and we endeavoru to find out the causes. In this area - we will feed back any learning curves on our DIS offers - and our various open days with our public - and especially the young in this county

Now I cannot say fairer than that and I do appreciate frustrations too.


I can try to help by constantly nagging at people to think more COAST values which by default makes them choose a safe speed ( which perhaps motorways apart at times - does seem to be more in line with legal lollies anyways with the marginal but normal blips up and down ) .


I can try to help matters by targetting the nutters first and getting them off the roads here as priority.


I can try to serve justice and understanding by trying to establish the cause and I serve my public best by trying to do so as thoroughly and as quickly as possible too. and where poss - keep traffic moving safely along the alternative routes as best we can.

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I'd just like to add some small points...

When I have been stuck on a motorway, the two things which would mean so much to me are: A) What on earth has happened? B) Approximately how long before I can be on my way?

I don't think radio broadcasts, when/if you get them, or a Chinese whisper making its way down the chain is very effective at allaying the frustration for the motorist. The overhead signs, if you happen to be near one and if it's updated soon enough, just says 'accident' or 'delays'. Big deal! I want to know things like, is there a lane open or are all three blocked?

When everything's going well I see things like 'Approximate time to M6, 20 mins'. Well how about the approximate time before you get past the accident, or one hour before road cleared? Useful stuff, ya know? How about an officer dedicated to letting us know what's going on? Sod the expense, they spend enough on cameras.

I know it makes no difference to however long it takes but, as with most things - it's just nice to know! At least then I can switch off my engine, go for a pee in the hedge and start a conversation with my captive audience about how crap my life is

My other small point is that a code suggests something very different to me than does a 'law'. If the contents of The Highway Code are lawful, perhaps this road bible should be renamed 'The Highway Law'? If indeed it is a code, perhaps the law shouldn't be prosecuting us for some of the things within? Maybe it is both code and law? Now I've confused myself

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

The highway code is a policy document (IMHO) that contains law (in red, and bold), standards & guidelines, and recommendations.

AIUI verring too far from the policies and guidelines can be argued to be driving without due care and attention, but in the case of overtaking MLM's on the left, the highway code supports this and bans it in two separate rules.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Hmmm. Thanks Handy.

I'm still not sure that The Highway Code isn't a misnomer? Is the speed limit a code of good practice and driving, or if you are over by just 1mph you're nicked cuz it's the law? Must confess, I haven't read the good book for a long time.

Sorry for going off the point a bit by the way. With regard to the M25, there is potential for egg-on-face for some of us. I agree with Rigpig, if I get your drift bud, which is to say unless anyone here was intimately involved in the accident proceedings or has access to the facts, who's to say it didn't demand the time and attention it was given?

Not every officer can always look busy all of the time while other matters are being considered. Other peoples jobs always look easy until you try it yourself. (I've been there).

I'm sure we have all heard the one about if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. (ass/u/me). There's lots of assumption and opinion, and I am complicit, but no-one here seems to be able to give hard facts about the time it took to clear the road.

If this discussion were a court case it would be thrown out for insufficient evidence, so far...

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I feel every one has missed som important points on this thread.

1.this was a one off accident like gary hart. It is unlikly to be repeated. We should not make rules or laws bases on very rare cases ? Miles of crash barriers are being erected due to the hart case , yet there may well be more deaths from the road works to errect them than they will save?

2. why did the flat bed slice through the recovery cab. A. the crash bars under the flat bed , if they existed are expected to stop a family car not 5 tons of tarck and load.

3. why did the recovery truck run into the lorry if it was moving. A. recovery trucks are not restricted to 56mph. trucks are. Also the dribver may have fallen asleep, the passengers may have been messing about and distracted him.

4. Sorry handy , but down south the police do close roads at the drop of a hat , for long periods with out worrying about whole cities being cut off for many hours. (in this case it was the right call)


5. Paul has identified correctly that the emphasis has shifted from acident prosicution from accident prevention. He may have in one sense chosen the wrong case (slightly insensitive), but this case will get more publicity

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

"Highway Code is just a code" said the judge

We know of a case in which a person was rear-ended (courtesy of Juju as person is a middle aged person who lives down her way) as she slowed for amber lights. I have some photos somewhere which I should scan to elucidate this. I have met this person. She stayed over at ours with Juju who had befriended her.

Basically there are three sets of traffic lights on this road. 90 yards from a large roundabout to the first set; 70 yards to the second and another 90 yards to the third. Lights work on a green flow system - which means all lights change to green in synch.. but lights 2 and 3 each have a second or so's difference.

Person drove in congested traffic. Inner lane standing and outer lane flowing up to the first lights and she changed lanes into the inner lane at a safe point and travelled around 50 yards and slowing when hit. Person who hit her was on a motorbike. He claimed a "sudden lane change" and claimed his bike skidded along the tarmac faster than a car travelling at above 15 mph - for over 50 yards

Biker did not know what his speed on approach to any of these lights actually was.

Biker was unable to explain why the inside lane was "empty -ish" beyond this first set of lights which was apparently stationary due to traffic wishing to use a busy and congested road into town centre and some factory and a hospital and three schools to the left.

Biker admitted he passed these lights on amber as he was "too fast to stop" Yet this was a 90 yard run to the lights and a prudent road user would be choosing a speed of approach whereby he could stop safely in the distance he could see to be clear. Wildy knows more about motorbikes than I do - but she says that in damp conditions in such a short run up - she'd be at less than 30 mph as an Advanced biker on a really powerful bike. (Her bike .. blimey! it can outpace the Jags She can easily manage almost twice the ton on that darned thing if she were so inclined .. and she has done so on family track sessions The Swiss girls compete against each other. Swiss girls called Krissi and Jessika seem to be the real ecperts though )

But back to this case: the judge decided she "preferred" the biker's version because "the highway code is just a code and says that there is no need to stop for an amber light"

Hang on! Page 70 says MUST STOP at amber and it says "Green OK if safe to go!"

People on PH have been pinged on amber as well

So can this "just a code" thing be used as precedential judgement which binds a lower court than a County Court ?

It is not "just a Code" by the way. A lot of it makes courteous common sense. I do admit to having a few issues over braking times as I know my Jag will stop quite calmly and safely and virtually instantly whilst the Moggie and Stag (also Swiss and own family collections as car enthusiasts) will take a fraction longer with the same drivers testing them on tracks .

But this rule would apply to basic average and by and large the HC makes for a set of basic common sense rules overall.

But was this M25 closed for too long?

I am in possession of a piece in the "Bolton News" as alerted by my brother and two sisters down in that 'burb.

Will post from a link if I find it as quicker to do so

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You do get my drift correctly Tone, and thank you for saying so.

Similarly...



Assuming you mean 'has shifted towards accident prosecution from accident prevention' - how do you know this? If I have misunderstood, I apologise in advance.

Jeff mate

Precisely we are really kindred spirits.

But you know .. the Swiss mon in particular experienced soemthing above the norm in that they lost one and nearly lost my wife in rapid succession.

The first incident was not speed related but more "defect vehicle related" and Wildy was very unlucky that day as we accept.

BUT . I research my own field of lurgies and Wildy her own field of cancer cures. You can only take in so much evidence at once. There are only so many photos you can take - else you duplicate and confues the issue.

I think IG did say he could not tell how far debris scattered in this case as not privy to investigation - and this may have affected time taken to take in this evidence too. Obviously I talk on the phone to the guy over this and that so I may confuse what he said to me in a family "semi-private" to what he posted at the time himself.

I do not think we really question the need to investigate as such.. but more the time taken to do so. If we have a decent explanation as tax payers and thus "stakeholders" - then I guess we are all satisfied.

But then again - as stakeholders whose lives depend on such findings of these investigations - we should also be made aware of the mistakes made so that we can perhaps learn from them and actively seek to avoid making a similarly awful and infinitely traumatic error of judgement in such a similar situation.

That's the learning curve .. the evaluation curve.. the constant improvement curve after all

Maybe I am an optimist. But then I have to be for most of my patients anyway. I can perhaps sum up my job as a "giver of some glimmering of remote hope"

I suppose this professional requirement spills over into road safety issues

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

In my job I see the aftermath of accidents and the trauma it causes to all those involved. There is a French proverb; 'to understand is to forgive'. It's all part of the healing process to know what happened, and why, as much as humanly possible for the sake of those who are left behind. Once you understand, it is then possible to forgive and gain closure - with help and time.

Not least for this reason, the accident deserved to take as long as it took and I don't believe anyone here is being insensitive in this regard; it's just the inordinate time it seemed to take which is in question.

Even without the facts, and maybe this is where I am truly coming from, you would think in this modern day and age with all our resources and technology, something more could have been done to expedite matters but once again, I don't see how any of us can be certain.

I think I can be certain that what I have read at Safespeed, some have been blessed with incredible understanding and forgiveness and for these people I have the utmost respect and admiration. You know who you are

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Opps - more haste less speed. Should've said, meant to say, the investigation deserved to take as long as it takes. Silly me

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Warning... total topic drift...



Hey, that's interesting... Is it 'haste' that kills then?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Aplogies for digging up an old thread....

There was another big crash on the M25 this week and it was closed for ...... 10 hours.

Is there a '10 hour rule' for M25 crashes ??

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www.misspelled-signs.com - A tribute to illiterate signwriters.

I suppose it took time to remove 30 tons of plasterboard - plus two lorries and the van.

Fortunately no one appears to have died - but a young man in his 20s has "severe chest injuries" per the report in the Waily. Hope he makes a good recovery.

All I can say is if the folks stuck there took it in their stride and socialised with each other in that wait - then and to the lot of them - especially when they will have missed holiday flights and ferries etc. Also - I suppose the police have to be commended by ensuring these folk did get bottles of water/food as well.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

I have stumbled across your site because i have been desperate to find something related to the inquest and i put that in as a search word and i ended up here. 2 of the people in that accident were dear close friends of mine.

i cannot tell you how much my heart is wrenched. i am not even sure if it is possible to ever explain it. I wander around feeling hopeless and lost as if if to try and find something that makes sense in order to get back to normal. it cannot be possible to completely understand without going through the experience yourselves.

For some time now i have had almost an obsession to try to understand what happened in the accident. it is completely beyond me because it appears as though no other vehicles were involved. i have wanted to know precisely what happened including what it and they looked like. that may sound bizzare. i am sometimes so lost because still i do not know and all i know was one day my dear friends didnt make it home. i cannot stress how wonderful and responsible these people were.

anyway, somewhere in this thread somebody mentions how irrirating it is that the roads are closed on a day such a bank holiday. this is incredible - i am completely gob smacked. Do you know, even if i hadnt experienced this inconvievable tragedy if i had been somebody inconvienced i would be feeling for the loss of those lives, the friends and family affected, the police and rescue services who are faced with the horrendous site that they had to deal with let alone speaking to the familes. I would be thinking of how delicate life is and so incredibly lucky i am that i am still living and breathing because my friends were so beautiful and talented that its just such an injustice that they can no longer be with us. Do you see. its about inconviencing the thousands of people. its about so much more than that but i suppose perhaps you cannot understand that because it hasnt happened to you. I pray so very hard that we will find out what happened and that we can do things to remember them and be stronger for knowing them.

despite what i read, it is an interesting site. thank you.

Gemstar,



There's nothing we can do for you after the event except to offer sympathy and commiserations - and you certainly have mine.

We are here in this forum because modern policy isn't doing enough of the right things to prevent such tragedies in the first place.

The anger I expressed at the Police is not to do with the inconvenience of motorway closure, but to do with the very poor focus of modern roads fatality investigation. Effectively the Police are gathering evidence to establish blame. Such evidence is of extremely limited value for future crash prevention. They are not digging down to 'root causes' of crashes - their investigation stops when they have sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. Let's look at a ficticious example:

An 18 year old driver crashes on a bend at night and his passenger dies. The Police investigation reveals that his driving was dangerous and a court case follows.

But the Police never ask WHY he was driving dangerously nor how to help other young men to avoid the same mistake. 'Root cause analysis', common in air, marine and industrial accident investigation simply keeps asking why. For example:

- Why was he driving dangerously? (Because he didn't have the training to know better? Because there was something wrong with his attidude? Because he didn't see the bend in time?

- Why didn't he see the bend in time? Inexperience? Something wrong with the road layout? Distracted by a passenger?

- Why was he distracted by a passenger?

And so on. Once we understand better the root causes of road crashes we can focus resources to prevent the same thing happening again, or at worst make it less likely.

I hope we can help you to understand something about the simple human errors that underlie road crashes and to understand that the focus of investigation should mainly be for future prevention.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I hope you find out what happened and can come to terms with it. We all want accidents properly investigated, however there is a frustration when roads are closed for excessive times with excessive impacts on people’s lives. It is sad that inquests are kept relatively secret and not published. Many details are kept quiet. I don't think the public understand the many contributory factors involved. You might get a copy of the report direct from the coroner.

One member, Belladonna is experienced in dealing with road deaths and also may be able to help you find out more about what happened .

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

thank you. thats helpful. i'll try. i think i am allowed to request a copy of the report but i think its down to the coroner or someone who decides whether to give me a copy.

Mate. You need closure and some sense out of a dire situation.

From point of view of relatives/pals in any tragedy .. you demand answers.


From point of view of those held up with lives of their own to lead - it's not a callous disregard - but a concern with the needy practicalities of life going on. It's a very fine line really. I know this as I deal with trying to smooth out bad news in a daily basis and I once had to cope with a very personal trauma cum nightmare of my own when my lovely wife almost died when someone was taken ill and rammed into her car. She does post to this site as Wildy Larger than life.. irrepressable... lively.. lovebable - to me anyway

You knew those guys. I am a medic. I fear talent fror my profession was lost there from what I read. I really feel for you as person in some grief here.

However, whilst I know we have to collate evidence ... I do wonder at the duration of time taken based on my own knowledge and experience of my wife's incident. >]


There were alternatives to keep folk on the move without compromising evidence relating in any case. It's not a self centred point of view but one which tries to address the balance between the need to do justice to the deceased/walking wounded and their respective families and the need to keep the innocent on the move to do their own very innocent business.

It's hardly rocket science to allow traffic to share a carriageway as the norm with roadworks for example.

I am not saying no investigation takes place .. merely that common sense alternatives keep uninvolved folk about their normal business by proper traffic management

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