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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:55 
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Victory for the Mail as watchdog looks into raising legal driving age
03.11.06

Parliamentary watchdogs are to look at raising the driving age to 18 in a bid to cut the carnage caused by young 'rogue' drivers on Britain's roads.

The powerful House of Commons' Transport Select Committee is to consider raising from 17 the minimum age at which young and inexperienced drivers can take their L-test to gain a full licence.

The major investigation announced on Thursday by such an influential body follows a campaign by the Daily Mail to raise the minimum age for a full licence to 18.

The move was immediately welcomed by motoring groups, road safety organisations and insurers - and by the MP who raised the issue with the committee after being moved by the Daily Mail's campaigning coverage of the issue.

Support for a change in the L-test age was voiced by Elizabeth Davidson - whose 26 year old doctor daughter Margaret was killed by a speeding teenager - backed the moves for a one year probationary period and tougher sentencing.

Mrs Davidson, who read out the full text of her court statement on radio, leaving many listeners sobbing, is demanding tougher penalties for rogue drivers after Margaret's 19-year-old killer was sentenced to only four years.

A coalition of insurance, motoring and road safety groups - spearheaded by the Association of British insurers - believes raising the L-test age could cut road deaths by 1,000 each year.

Last year nearly 1,200 young drivers under the age of 20 were killed or seriously injured.

Drivers aged 17 to 19 are ten times more likely to have an accident than those aged 30-plus.

Many are also uninsured, untaxed and driving cars without an MOT.

Men aged 17 to 20 account for three per cent of the driving population but 33 per cent of convictions for dangerous driving, including causing death and bodily harm.

Launching its inquiry into 'novice' drivers, the Commons' Transport Select committee said last night: "Changes might include new pre-test requirements such as a minimum number of hours or miles driving, or a minimum period between obtaining a provisional licence and taking the test."

Compulsory professional tuition for learners - rather than a few tips from, mum, dad or a mate - and additional training for motorway and night driving are also being considered.

Significantly, the committee asked on Thursday: "Would there be any benefit in changing the minimum age at which a provisional or full licence may be obtained."

MPs are also to look at the option of a 'graduated licensing' in which restrictions would be placed on drivers after they pass their test or until a second test is taken.

This could include restrictions on night driving, a lower speed limit, restrictions on the number of passengers who could be carried and a lower blood alcohol level for drink-driving offences.

MPs will consider the extent to which driver attitude affects the collision rates of young and novice drivers.

They will look at the effectiveness of the existing practical and theory driving tests in identifying safe driving skills and behaviour and whether the hazard perception test has achieved its objective of helping learners spot and anticipate trouble on the road ahead.

Evidence is to be taken early next year from police, road safety bodies, insurance experts, motoring groups and other interested parties.

Announcing the inquiry, a spokesman for the committee said: "The chance of a driver being involved in a collision is particularly high during the first year after passing the driving test.

"The Government estimates that nearly 38,800 people are killed or injured each year in collisions involving at least one driver with less than two years' post-test experience.

"We want to know to what extent novice drivers are more at risk of being involved in a collision than other drivers, and whether this is primarily a consequence of age, inexperience or a combination of both."

Tory MP Lee Scott, who raised the issue with the House of Commons Transport Select Committee of which he is a member, was delighted the inquiry got the green light.

He said: "I am very pleased that the committee has taken up the baton on this very important subject. We need to look at radical solutions.

"This is a problem which blights families and leave parents grieving for their children. If it saves one life, it is worth it. Hopefully it will save many thousands of lives."

Malcolm Tarling of the Association of British Insurers (ABI) welcomed the move: "This is an important step towards making young and inexperienced drivers safe and reducing the carnage on our roads. It is heartening that the MPs have listened to our concerns."

The ABI said most countries in Europe do not allow drivers to take a test until they are 18.

Sweden switched to the higher age of 18 in 1993. The effect of a longer probationary period was a drop in the number of accidents per mile of up to 40 per cent.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 18:32 
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It is a symptom of the growing erosion of freedom in this country that, after many years of reducing the minimum ages for things, we are now looking at raising them again. Scotland has already raised the minimum age for smoking from 16 to 18...

Do they want to raise the minimum age for riding a moped at the same time? If not, then road deaths would probably increase as you would have far more 17-yos on mopeds.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 18:40 
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PeterE wrote:
Do they want to raise the minimum age for riding a moped at the same time? If not, then road deaths would probably increase as you would have far more 17-yos on mopeds.


You also have to worry about the 17 year olds who take to the roads unlicenced and untutored. And the 18 year olds who have zero experience.

"Raising the bar means that more will sneak underneath" said Paul Smith... :)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 18:47 
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Around a third of young people now go on to higher education at 18, often moving away from home.

Currently, with the minimum driving age at 17, they have ample chance to learn to drive before they leave home. If it was raised to 18, those with birthdays in the second half of the educational year would be seriously disadvantaged. Arguably this is less a safety measure than a social engineering one - if you go away to university without having learned to drive, the chances are much less that you ever will.

Of acquaintances in the 18-22 age group, I have to say that those with driving licences on average seem more mature than those without.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 19:57 
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To my mind there could be two angles to this - and the views of the insurance industry apparently view it that way.

1) Age -
2) experience.

(as per insurers -This is an important step towards making young and inexperienced drivers safe and reducing the carnage on our roads.)

I would question whether the largest group attaining a licence is not the 17 -18 year olds. So theoretically this group is going to have the worst statistically accident record. They're still having to think about what the HC says- like a Brit on holiday in Spain, who can speak Spanish - ( only he hears question in Spanish, translates it into english, works out answer in english and translates it back into Spanish)( Once on the road a few years we miss out the translation stage , or rather our brain does it for us)
There could be other groups who have a bad record ( in terms of numbers passing test ), but because of their age and number little notice is taken.

Surely it would make more sense to try and reduce the experience gap amongst younger drivers - get them interested in driving - perhaps not in the practical sense ,but with theory( or computer simulation) a few years before they can legally hold a licence - at least then they're better equiped in at least the observation department.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 23:18 
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I have a letter from Stephen Ladyman which states they have no intention of altering anything, as it would affect young peoples chances of finding employment or taking up further education!

I have posted it up elsewhere in another thread. :oops:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 23:25 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I have a letter from Stephen Ladyman which states they have no intention of altering anything, as it would affect young peoples chances of finding employment or taking up further education!

Although I'm no fan of theirs, I think we must give some credit to the current government for playing a straight bat against many of these loopy suggestions.

And I continue to believe they needed a fair bit of moral courage to refuse to cut the drink-drive limit, which had been widely touted as a Labour policy before the 1997 election.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 01:12 
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PeterE wrote:
Around a third of young people now go on to higher education at 18, often moving away from home.


Ist a bit of a conundrum.. nicht?

Liebchen.. as you all know .. am Swiss by birth und upbringing. In our country .. has always been age 18 before we learned to drive.. likewise France/Germany/Austria.

In USA .. varies from age 15 to 18 depending on which Federal State..


From my own experience as Uni student ... not a problem.. but then I had my Papa to back me. (He did cut my allowance when I bought a top of range motorbike.. though :hehe: He never has approved of motorbikes.. :roll:

There ist another difference in EU. Most of us attend Uni nearest our home .. unless "specialist". Ist not like UK. ;) where the tendency ist to fly nest to go to Uni. We did stay in Uni lodgings but we tended to commute home to Mama und Papa at weekends .. with our laundry :lol: und return fully laundered und stocked up with goodies from Mama's larder. :lol:

So - ist way different from UK - nicht ? :wink:

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Currently, with the minimum driving age at 17, they have ample chance to learn to drive before they leave home. If it was raised to 18, those with birthdays in the second half of the educational year would be seriously disadvantaged. Arguably this is less a safety measure than a social engineering one - if you go away to university without having learned to drive, the chances are much less that you ever will.


Our kittens looked forward to being 17 und learning to drive. Having said that. .. we made it very clear to them that we would only pay und subsidise their driving experiences if they proved to us they were mature und responsible enough to warrant this und drive our cars as named drivers und have insurance funded by us to build their own insurance driving record as well.

I boast here ... sorry :popcorn:

I am very proud Mama Wildy Cat as these kittens so far have not let us down at all.. one has RoSPA Gold standard at just age 19 years und the twins are looking to emulate his example .. ist a sibling rivalry if you like :hehe: :wink:




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Of acquaintances in the 18-22 age group, I have to say that those with driving licences on average seem more mature than those without.


Ja.. I think it does give them a sense of maturity und responsiblity. I think "Day-veee" who cameruns :boxedin: the fastest pedals in the West .. :hehe: was even thinking of reducing to even age 16 years given these children can marry at age 16 years und with marriage.. come also responsibilities.

I do think though that we need to get across the COAST message und try to motivate und enthuse these kids to develop und further their skills... to get across that ability to handle a car skillfully in all conditions ist a lot cooler than pushing the envelope to extremes... und like A level ist just the step stone to degree und professional career und intellectual skill development for life .. so too ist the initial pass of the L-test a stepping stone to further enhancement, safety, FUN und enjoyment . 8-) :lol:

A good carrot would be in insurance premiums for these kids. :wink: if they seek to develop their driving skills.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:41 
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Drivers aged 17 to 19 are ten times more likely to have an accident than those aged 30-plus.


Surely the problem has more to do with lack of experience rather than age. The number of people who learn to drive at 30 must be miniscule compared to the number at 17-19 so it must be very difficult to compare the figures.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:49 
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semitone wrote:
Surely the problem has more to do with lack of experience rather than age. The number of people who learn to drive at 30 must be miniscule compared to the number at 17-19 so it must be very difficult to compare the figures.

It does actually have something to do with age - those who pass their test at a later age generally do have a much better safety record in their first two years, probably because they have developed a more mature attitude to risk-taking.

The number learning to drive as soon as they pass 17 has dramatically declined, possibly due to the rising cost of insurance. Only about 28% now pass before the age of 20, so there are a lot of older learners.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 13:11 
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PeterE wrote:
semitone wrote:
Surely the problem has more to do with lack of experience rather than age. The number of people who learn to drive at 30 must be miniscule compared to the number at 17-19 so it must be very difficult to compare the figures.

It does actually have something to do with age - those who pass their test at a later age generally do have a much better safety record in their first two years, probably because they have developed a more mature attitude to risk-taking.


My best estimate for the factor split (age experience) is 50/50. If you (or anyone else) has a reference source, I'd be very interested.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 20:05 
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It is a symptom of the growing erosion of freedom in this country that, after many years of reducing the minimum ages for things, we are now looking at raising them again. Scotland has already raised the minimum age for smoking from 16 to 18...


I've always like the fact you can have sex legally at 16, but you've got another two years to wait before you can legally buy porn.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 08:49 
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I'm totally against this:

- it smacks of its alright I've got my license,
- how many licenced and insured drivers are actually rogue drivers - I'd hazard that most are unlicenced.
- what about getting to work and college etc? some 17 year olds have jobs.
- it will increase the number of uninsured drivers, hit and runs will increase as a result.

First priority tackle uninsured and unlicenced driving.

In addition to war on iraq and the motorist this government seems to want to wage war with the youth as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 08:54 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
PeterE wrote:
semitone wrote:
Surely the problem has more to do with lack of experience rather than age. The number of people who learn to drive at 30 must be miniscule compared to the number at 17-19 so it must be very difficult to compare the figures.

It does actually have something to do with age - those who pass their test at a later age generally do have a much better safety record in their first two years, probably because they have developed a more mature attitude to risk-taking.


My best estimate for the factor split (age experience) is 50/50. If you (or anyone else) has a reference source, I'd be very interested.


I find this interesting - we used to have a policy of not hiring graduates who had not learned to drive. This policy existed for two reasons:

Firstly they are likely to need to be mobile (but one could argue they could learn fairly quickly). However, the primary reason was that those who had not bothered to learn early were unlikely to be right for us..

We want our recruits to be champing at the bit and getting on. We see this as an indication of attitute and it raised alarm bells.

I wonder how this factors in to driver safety?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 14:50 
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diy wrote:
I find this interesting - we used to have a policy of not hiring graduates who had not learned to drive. This policy existed for two reasons:

Firstly they are likely to need to be mobile (but one could argue they could learn fairly quickly). However, the primary reason was that those who had not bothered to learn early were unlikely to be right for us..

We want our recruits to be champing at the bit and getting on. We see this as an indication of attitute and it raised alarm bells.

What kind of business was this, as a matter of interest? Were they required to drive as part of the job?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 18:38 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I have a letter from Stephen Ladyman which states they have no intention of altering anything, as it would affect young peoples chances of finding employment or taking up further education!

I have posted it up elsewhere in another thread. :oops:


Good, my daughter passed her test at 17 and drives to work. She is as safe as anyone I know on the road. Without it she would not be able to do her job.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 23:31 
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As posted elsewhere - it's not the age - it's the experience level - at present kids have to be 17 to get a licence - get them involved at 15 or more - give them the experience sooner, then when they get on the roads - they will be safer, by design.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 16:08 
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Ooh look, another pointless numerical limit. That'll solve the problem... :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 00:51 
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Ziltro wrote:
Ooh look, another pointless numerical limit. That'll solve the problem... :roll:



Or perhaps it's time to get rid of the production line driving school idea and return to 20/30 years ago - where teenagers were taught to drive first, then taught to pass the test. Add to that proper and enforced signing of new drivers( and some proper policing to give them some protection and if necessary some extra advice/education) .
Production lines are great for turning out radios etc - some learners need a bit more attention.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:05 
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There are two different scenarios to consider here:

1) Drivers can get a provisional licence at 17, but can't take their test and get a full licence until they are 18.

2) Drivers can't get a provisional licence (and hence start learning to drive) until they are 18.

Which one are we talking about?

Surely (2) will just shift all the stats by a year, i.e.

"Men aged 17 to 20 account for three per cent of the driving population but 33 per cent of convictions for dangerous driving, including causing death and bodily harm"

will simply become

"Men aged 18 to 21 account for three per cent of the driving population but 33 per cent of convictions for dangerous driving, including causing death and bodily harm"

Since it is inexperience that causes the problems, not age - A 17 year old is physically just as capable of controlling a vehicle as an 18 year old is. The only difference between them is experience, surely?

Another effect will be to (eventually) reduce the driving experience of everyone of a given age by a year. Why would they want to do this?

There is one advantage though - 'A' level results would be sure to improve with students (16-18) not having the distraction of driving lessons. But that's an "aside".

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Last edited by antera309 on Wed Nov 22, 2006 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

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