Safe Speed Forums

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 84,00.html

Toll For Motorway Drivers
Updated: 06:50, Friday October 20, 2006

Motorists could be charged by the mile on some of Britain's busiest motorways, it has been reported.

The Government is planning new congestion levies to reduce traffic jams.

Transport Secretary Douglas Alexander has asked the Highways Agency to nominate a motorway for a charging trial, The Times has claimed.

The M25, London's orbital road, would be a likely choice because it has the worst congestion and traffic is continuing to grow rapidly.

A fourth lane is being added to the remaining three-lane sections and one option would be to charge to drive in the new lane at peak times, the paper said.

The trial might lead to a national charging scheme covering all roads.

The Government has said such a system could be introduced by around 2015.

A Department of Transport study in 2004 claimed a £1.13 a mile charge on motorways and A-roads would reduce congestion by 34%.

Ministers are planning congestion-charging trials in one or two regional cities, starting in 2010.

Cities that agree to take part will get up to £200m extra a year to invest in transport, including better buses and new tram lines.

Manchester, Birmingham and Cambridge are the leading contenders for the trials.




They've obviously forgotten these are OUR roads, paid for many times over. I hope if this goes ahead there is one almighty protest about it.

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Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

I have no objection to sensible road tolls that are worth paying rather than taking alternative routes. £1.13 a mile is incredibly excessive though. I'm more inclined to something in the region of 30p or 50p for certain trunk roads where the money can be automatically collected. If 100,000 vehicles pass that point a day, that's still £30,000 or £50,000 a day.

That money can then be spent on providing decent alternative modes of transport. The ideal would be an orbital railway. Failing that then an "express" orbital bus service. They could place small bus-stations at each junction of the M25. The passengers could then alight at the relevant stop and there would be buses to take them the rest of the way. Of course, such a scheme would have to be cheaper than driving and the buses would have to be frequent enough.

The other concept that could really help the transport crisis is the concept of a virtual office. Now there are many people for whom the main commute is from the homeplace to work, and the jobs they are doing are of the nature that they could perform them remotely. However, many either lack the facility to work from home, nor is it practical. However, there could be an in-between solution: a virtual office would be just like a work-place office, only it would be relatively local. These virtual offices would have all the necessary facilities, and you would even get to meet other workers. Commutes to work would be cut down enormously. Ideally these virtual offices would also offer creche facilities.

I completely disagree here. I don't mind the M6 toll - because it was provided as an ALTERNATIVE (and I always choose to use it). But I seriously object to paying for roads that I HAVE to use, particularly when I have already paid through the nose through VED and fuel duty.

Motorists already pay a fortune - I wonder what proportion of the money collected from motorists actually goes on transport, I bet it's not very high.

If they came out with alternative ways of collecting the same money eg implement tolls with a corresponding decrease in fuel duty that's fine. This is just yet another way of screwing the motorist, nothing at all to do with congestion.

If they were in the slightest bit interested in congestion then they'd sort out the time that roads are closed for raods works.

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Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

Many countries have tolls though. The USA has them. They also have an "EZ" (pronounced E-Zee) pass scheme so that traffic can pass through these points with "automatic" collection. At some points the toll is just $1.

I would not object to paying a small amount, say 50p, for a decent car journey if this money was specifically going to be spent on improving capacity which includes the provision of alternative means of transport so that you wouldn't have to take the car at all.

For most routes that involve the M25, there is no sensible alternative assuming you have to make the journey.

Safe Speed issued the following PR at 10:26 this morning:

PR385: 'Price the poor off the roads' scheme won't work to ease congestion

news: for immediate release

The Times today reports on congestion charging trials on motorways. Safe Speed
says that congestion charging won't work but it will price the poor off the
roads.

Safe Speed research exposed fundamental flaws in the government's road pricing
dreams. They simply are not allowing for the demand regulation effects of
journey time. When congestion takes place travel takes longer and some people
simply don't have the time to travel. This caused congestion to ease in a self
regulating cycle.

With road pricing the increased cost tends to deter poorer road users from
travelling - so far so good - but the reduced congestion is attractive to
better off road users who take advantage so restoring congestion to similar
levels.

They say that congestion costs business 20 billion pounds per annum - but
that's already a congestion cost. Thousands of businesses have already
relocated out of town centres for better roads connections. That's why there's
an economic boom along the 'M4 corridor'. For those businesses congestion is
already a road pricing scheme and business works to minimise costs.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "Traffic levels haven't grown in London for about
30 years. That's because London traffic is already at capacity. The London
congestion charge has made little or no difference to congestion, overall
traffic levels or journey times - but you have to read TfL self-congratulatory
reports carefully to find the truth."

"National congestion charging would be the largest white elephant ever created.
There ought to be a law about governments using hugely expensive technology to
regulate the population. We don't want it. We don't need it and it won't even
work."

"It's it curious that a Labour government is so determined to price the poor
off the roads to make way for the rich?"

"The practicalities of national road user charging are mind boggling. Just
imagine trying to collect on 25 million monthly bills. Just imagine the billing
disputes. Just imagine the scale of the technology and the opportunities for
breakdown at every level."

"Then there's privacy. What if you don't want your wife to know you have
visited your mistress three times in the last month?"

"Then there's evasion. People will look for ways to evade or undermine the
system. It's amazing what you can do with a laptop and a few tools in a closed
garage in 30 minutes."

"Who will save us from road pricing madness?"

<ends>

Notes for editors
=================

Article in Today's times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 06,00.html

Safe Speed memorandum to Commons Transport Committee:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 18we58.htm

============================

And here's the Times source (ref just above):

Congestion charging spreads to motorways

By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent

MOTORISTS face congestion charges on some of Britain’s busiest motorways under government plans to reduce queues by charging by the mile at peak times.

Douglas Alexander, the Transport Secretary, has asked the Highways Agency to identify a suitable section of the 4,800-mile strategic road network for a congestion-charging trial, The Times has learnt.

The M25, London’s orbital motorway, is likely to be considered as it has the worst congestion and traffic is continuing to grow rapidly. A fourth lane is being added to the remaining three-lane sections and one option would be to charge for access to the new lane at peak times.

The trial would be a forerunner to a national charging scheme covering all roads, which the Government has said could be introduced around 2015. Congestion on motorways and A-roads would reduce by 34 per cent if charges of up to £1.34 a mile were introduced, according to a study published by the Department for Transport in 2004.

The Government yesterday demonstrated its determination to use charging to tackle congestion by announcing a 50 per cent increase in the toll for using the M25 Dartford river crossing. From early 2008, the price for cars will rise from £1 to £1.50.

The toll will be scrapped between 10pm and 6am to encourage lorries to travel at night rather than contributing to congestion during the day. Drivers who install an electronic tag and set up a prepaid account will pay only £1.

The move comes despite a promise when the crossing was built to abolish the toll when the bridge and tunnels were paid for. That happened in 2003. Since then, the Department for Transport has received an estimated £200 million from the toll.

The department wants hundreds of thousands of drivers to get used to the idea of having tags in their cars because similar technology could be used for national road charging.

Ministers are planning congestion-charging trials in one or two regional cities, starting in 2010. Cities that agree to take part will be rewarded with up to £200 million extra a year to invest in transport, including better buses and new tram lines. Manchester, Birmingham and Cambridge are the leading contenders to participate in the trials.

A department source said: “We need to test road pricing on motorways as well as in urban areas. If we are serious about addressing congestion, we cannot ignore motorways where many of the worst problems are found.”

Since last month, vehicles have been able to use the hard shoulder on an 11-mile stretch of the M42 at peak times.

Mr Alexander is preparing a road transport Bill that would give the department new powers to introduce charging on motorways. He wrote to Jack Straw, the Leader of the Commons, in July: “We are considering pilots on the trunk-road network as an important stage towards national road pricing.”

The department forecasts that traffic on all roads in England will rise by at least 29 per cent by 2015 and possibly as much as 38 per cent. Traffic on motorways and inter-urban A-roads will grow at a much faster rate, increasing by between 40 and 51 per cent.

The Conservatives said this month that they favoured charging for access to new lanes on motorways and opposed plans to turn some of them into car-sharing lanes.

The AA Motoring Trust said that it would support a motorway charging scheme as long as charges were imposed on new capacity only, such as the extra lanes being added to the M25, M1 and M6. It said that the Government would also have to show that the revenues were being reinvested to improve transport in the trial area.

David Begg, the Government’s former transport ad- viser, said: “All the research shows that motorists are much more likely to accept charging when it is for new capacity rather than existing roads.”

A department spokesman said: “The Highways Agency is involved in work to look at road pricing on a local basis. We need local pilots to give us experience of scalable technology.”

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

IF this ever came into effect (i travel 80 miles on the M4 everyday) I would be left with £8k per annum to pay my mortgage, bills, food, clothing, spending, looking after my 2 kids.....great, I will get myself sacked, claim the dole and sponge off those who are lucky enough to be able to afford to go to work and pay their taxes!

Perhaps I ought to emigrate to Spain like my sister did.....

From a purely selfish point of view I have often thought that on the M25 there needs to be a system to stop people joining and leaving after one or two junctions. Most of my journeys round the M25 involve joining from the A12 or M11 and leaving at the M40, M4 or M3 so I have to travel almost half way round. There are no good alternatives and the road is permanently busy during the day. It would be better if the road could function purely as a bypass around London for long distance traffic.

All these daft schemes will do is move traffic from motorways to local roads and increase accidents. If rush hour is defined rigidly then people will travel outside those times and it will be jammed then instead!

Anyone on minimum wage is going to be totally screwed as a 10 mile motorway commute would cost them over £20 each day.That's most of their pay gone. Even with obscene fuel costs they would be only spending about £2.50 a day currently.

With fuel you know how much it costs and far you can travel on it. How on earth can you charge someone in arrears for something they don't know in advance of the exact charges? What happens when the entire population says 'get stuffed' and doesn't pay the bill or they decide no-one is going to travel anywhere? A boycott by hauliers would kill this instantly as how is fresh food going to be distributed economically when it adds such a vast amount to haulage costs?

Shock, horror! David Begg says something sensible for once!!

I know that France has toll motorways and from what I've heard the money goes straight back into the Autoroute system. If there were toll motorways here, the money would probably be used to buy pie & chips for John Prescott. If it was, I wouldn't pay.

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

It'll be a lot more than £1.13 a mile then!


Seriously, do these idiots think people LIKE being stuck in traffic jams? They're there because they HAVE to be there. They'll still have to be there if they implement this - just a lot poorer.

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

We need more capacity because there are more cars. But that means more VED so the capacity is already paid for.

We should no have to pay twice for more capacity....

I use the M6 and would NEVER use the toll road even if it means sitting in a que.

In any case tolls will mean cars use non-motorway routes so will lead to more accidents.......nice one d1ck-heads

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Speed camera policy Kills

When you read reports like this, you may well realise that this scheme is utterly ridiculous.

http://motoring.aol.co.uk/motoring-news Click on the link cost of running a car.

The cost of running a car has risen by an average of £539 in the past year, despite a dip in ptrol prices an RAC report said.

And the Government wants us to pay more. Smart move! How many more stupid proposals will they come up with?

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

Someone that owns the tech to run the charging scheme will be giving cash to the labour party, that's how any of these hair brained schemes end up being attempted. Serco/Centrica give them cash and they get lots of contracts and import the cameras the pratnerships buy shed loads of.

How are people without bank accounts going to be charged exactly? I'm sure the gypsies/travellers won't pay either, even though they usually swan round in newish cars. Criminals won't. They'll steal our cars then we get stitched with the bill I bet. Ditto cloned cars. It might just be easier if everyone changes their plates to read 'UP YOURS' and let them try and work out whose is whose.

I wonder if there are laws against having strategically placed autumnn leaves glued to your plate or other accidental debris?

Yes! That is completely illegal and you could get a £30 fine for having an obscured numberplate if detected by a police officer!
And no points.

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Andrew.

And a microwaved bit of garbage placed their BOX against your will by a police state should sort that out.

Mind you this won't take place till 2015 - by that time i will be almost 70 - with the advance of diabetes - ( almost there ,just a matter of time) - i shoud be entitled to a motability car ( due to blood pressure and other problems advancing by then )- driven by my daughter ( depends which one i trust) --will that give me free travel - or wil they decide that i must travel at some obscene hour, just to get a free pass, or will i get an alowance , like a WW2 RATION BOOK ??

and the Gov't still has the nerve to claim that inflation is 1 or 2%...

Countrywide pay-by-the-mile road pricing will have an immediate impact on the running costs of virtually every business in the UK. This in turn will increase the cost of goods & services and hence raise inflation.

I cannot believe that the Government will take a risk like this with the Country's economy and to be honest I'm getting fed up with them constantly threatening us with Road Pricing as some sort of "count yourself lucky" propaganda tactic.

Inner city zone-based congestion charges are a different matter though. These could easily start to spread outside London and we should do everything we can to block them, just like they did in Edinburgh.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Whether you realise it or not, we already have a per mile charge applied to us for driving:

ITS CALLED PETROL

Do we really need another? Is it simply because the government cannot credibly put any more tax on a litre of petrol without repeats of the petrol protests?

That's right, and threatening us with yet higher costs is the Government's way of stopping us complaining about the already excessive taxation on fuel.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken