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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 22:15 
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OK .. so it's the Waily .. but Ray Massey does apparently have an FOI request backing up his piece anyway :wink:

Daily Mail wrote:
Outlaws On the Roads.


by RAY MASSEY -

Up to half the 130,000 new drivers banned by a law designed to crack down on young tearaways have gone back on the roads illegally, shocking figures reveal.

Magistrates are demanding action to tackle the flouting of the New Drivers Act by mainly young 'rogue' motorists which is putting millions of lives at risk.

The law automatically revokes the licences of those who run up six penalty points in their first two years on the road. They must retake their test after the ban.

Around 1,000 new drivers a month are banned under the law, of which eight out of ten are under 24.





The New Drivers' law was intended to stop teenage tearaways

But magistrates fear that up to 65,000 youngsters who have had their licences revoked under the rule – half the total banned so far – have sneaked back on to the road illegally without a valid licence.

Often they are also without tax and even if they had insurance it would be invalidated. Even the

Government's Driving Standards Agency admits that the 1995 Act, which came into force in June 1997, "isn't working as intended".
:roll:


Presented with the evidence, the Department for Transport said last night that it is to review the law with a view to making it more effective.

The admission follows figures obtained by the Daily Mail from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency which show that between 1998 and February 2007 some 127,579 licences had been revoked under the law.

Of these, only 64,078 drivers have retaken their test. The remaining 63,501 have not.

:listenup:
Speed cameras cannot tell that they shouldn’t be on the roads. And if they are driving properly-taxed cars, it is unlikely they will be stopped by increasingly rare traffic patrols.

Magistrates are particularly concerned because most of the offenders have been banned for lacking insurance, which can cost up to £2,500 a year for a young driver.

Elliott Griffiths, national council member of the 28,000-strong Magistrates' Association, said: "The problem is that 1,000 motorists every month are having their licences revoked under this law.

"Yet only 500 a month are retakingand passing their test. Even if we are generous, it means that somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 new drivers who have had their licences revoked simply haven't retaken their test.

"It is inconceivable that they have all given up driving. Clearly the Act is not working the way it was designed to."

The scandal has reignited calls for the minimum driving age to be raised to 18, which is backed by the Association of British Insurers and has been the subject of a Daily Mail campaign.



Jury still out on raising the age limit. Perhaps more road safety lessons . including mandatory Bikeability might at least kindle a lasting respect of COAST values.. and of course a good old fashioned dollop of social etiquette and manners and self discipline :wink:

Of course, I hear that "manners" is now going to part of the "National Curriculum" for State Schools.

Odd.. I thought that teaching good manners was part of family life.. reinforced by the school teachers. It was in my day.

Ahh.. them were the days.. if I got into bother at school.. I got into more bother at home for getting into bother at school in the first place :roll:

So.. perhaps awe of my Dad's power with a rolled up newspaper .. and my school teachers perhaps kept me "in some line" :wink:

fixed "quote" - RP

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 07:17 
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I don't think this is just a problem with banned 'new drivers' but of all banned drivers. I would not be surprised if the majority did not continue to drive when banned regardless. Personal transport is so necessary for many and the cost/penalty of being caught doing so is tiny when compared with the advantages of doing so.

Other than a physical check of the licence how is anyone to know if a driver is entitled to drive or not - until too late?


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 07:43 
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Icandoit wrote:
I don't think this is just a problem with banned 'new drivers' but of all banned drivers. I would not be surprised if the majority did not continue to drive when banned regardless. Personal transport is so necessary for many and the cost/penalty of being caught doing so is tiny when compared with the advantages of doing so.

Other than a physical check of the licence how is anyone to know if a driver is entitled to drive or not - until too late?




Exactly Liebchen.

Why we need police on the roads. After all .. if pinged .. little chance they are in a registered car .. let alone insured.

Und not all of the scams have a camera anyway.. :roll: So.. as Prof Rose Baker pointed out in her paper.. the whole scam thing ist a lotto.


It ist no way to promote road safety. The only ones you can guarantee to be "live" are the revenue raising ones by the speed limit change lollies .. which ist not where the accidents ever happened anyway .. :roll:

(Ings come to mind :wink:)

But a policeman. Nine time out of ten.. you see policeman und most of us out there "tidy up the appearances immediately" if you like... und maintain for longer from my observations of generalised driving styles on rare occasion we see police on our roads.

(drunk und disorderly in clubland in the 'burbs .. that ist another very, serious und very dangerous matter for our beloved :bib: s of course. Und again .. ist about educating self respect und control .. und waving goodbye to pee-cee nonsense! :roll:)

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 08:20 
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I think the driving age could be raised to 18, but in the US a lot of states have a minimum age of 16, and some states this is lower for learners. Are their teenages more mature than ours?

With the amount of illegal driving going on in this country do we really think kids are going to wait to 18?

Perhaps what we should do is grant them a full provisional license at 16 for learning, but they cannot gain a full unsupervised license until 18. Also a phased approach could granted to the license like that in force for motorcyclists. I also think we should scrap the 50cc limit for 16 year olds and raise it to 125cc (still keeping them off the Mway) as I think 50cc bikes are frankly dangerous.

My 2c worth

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 09:53 
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blademansw wrote:
I think the driving age could be raised to 18, but in the US a lot of states have a minimum age of 16, and some states this is lower for learners. Are their teenages more mature than ours?

Rural counties in the USA can be considerably less densely populated and public transport non-existent.
blademansw wrote:
With the amount of illegal driving going on in this country do we really think kids are going to wait to 18?

They might but the 'problem' would just rise to slightly older 'kids' who get banned after totting up 6 points.
blademansw wrote:
I also think we should scrap the 50cc limit for 16 year olds and raise it to 125cc (still keeping them off the Mway) as I think 50cc bikes are frankly dangerous.

125cc bikes are allowed on motorways but learners are not. Is that what you meant?

50cc bikes in the UK are restricted. Unrestricted 50's can be pretty quick and you could see them as less dangerous. But (IIRC) most 50cc motorcycle incidents are not cause by them being run into - but by them running into others.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 13:16 
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But surely the root cause of this according to the article is the extortionate cost of insurance??

If kids are getting banned for not having insurance anyway they aren't going to be worried about continuing to drive illegally, and £2,500 a year is abolutely obscene.

I agree with Blademan about restricted bikes. Taking something that small which can't keep pace with the traffic onto a NSL road is stupid. You can hurt yourself just as badly at 30mph as you can travelling faster and those poxy little scooters are so unstable anyway...

I think a graduated approach to driving, possibly with restrictions like they have in New Zealand has to be a way forward. Increasing the driving age to 18 is silly because it won't make a difference - you'd have to raise it to about 25 to see any real improvement in maturity and attitude.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 13:18 
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blademansw wrote:
I think the driving age could be raised to 18, but in the US a lot of states have a minimum age of 16, and some states this is lower for learners. Are their teenages more mature than ours?


No, but driving in the US is a lot simpler - junctions all have traffic lights or STOP signs for all carridgeways, no roundabouts, slower speed limits, all automatic cars, wider lanes, etc..

Which is fine as long as you have twice as much space for roads as we have.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 13:59 
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AndyRadstock wrote:
No, but driving in the US is a lot simpler - junctions all have traffic lights or STOP signs for all carridgeways, no roundabouts, slower speed limits, all automatic cars, wider lanes, etc..

Road layout is simpler, when I drove in Philly, I thought they were all mad though!

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 15:25 
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The problem is the 'scale effect' of increased number of bans. In the 50's, very few people took drugs, so the penalties were harsh, but applied to only a very few. When drug taking increased in the 'swinging 60's (ah, yes, I remember the 60's so well - was I there?) the crime became devalued to the extent where soft drugs are not now considered unusual by very many.
The same thing is now applying to driving. When I started driving in the late 50's, to be banned was most unusual, as was driving without insurance. Now, so many get banned from camera points that the offence of DWD has been devalued in the eyes of many, leading to the current level of un-licenced (banned) drivers with no insurance and vehicles wrongly registered with DVLA. In the 60's if one drove whilst disqual the chance of being caught and imprisoned was high. Now, the chance of being caught is quite small and the penalty is not likely to be prison as there just aren't enough prison places available now.
My view is that with young drivers, if they get caught by the cameras and get some points, don't ban them or remove their licenceds, simply require formal re-validation of their skills preceded by some more advanced and mandated training.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 21:00 
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Age limit seems to be 18 in most of Europe, but their road safety record is no better, even worse !!

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 21:06 
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AndyRadstock wrote:
No, but driving in the US is a lot simpler - junctions all have traffic lights or STOP signs for all carridgeways, no roundabouts, slower speed limits, all automatic cars, wider lanes, etc..

Which is fine as long as you have twice as much space for roads as we have.


In the US you can get a learners permit at the age of 14 and can drive under supervision on public roads. Driving is also taught in schools.

BTW go west from Philly on route 30 and you come to no less than two roundabouts.

Interstates are often 75mph limit (varies state to state), city driving 35
4 way stops do not have traffic lights and can be tricky
Interstates (their motorways) are usualy 2 lane and believe it or not the Dual carriageway lanes are exactly the same width as ours at 12 feet (although we sometimes squeeze down to 11ft).

If you think the road layouts are simpler try driving in downtown Chicago..... :wink:

I do prefer driving over there though and one thing the do have in places like Chicago is traffic officers on the major junctions at rush-hour keeping the traffic moving.

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