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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:47 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 764088.ece

Quote:
Celebrity green car is declared unsafe
Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent

An electric car beloved of green-minded celebrities and promoted as the environmentally friendly alternative for city drivers may be banned after failing a basic crash test carried out by the Department for Transport.

The Government is so concerned by the lack of protection offered by the G-Wiz that it rushed out a statement last night stating that it was urgently seeking a review of the European regulations covering the sale of the cars.

The tiny car, made in Bangalore, India, has enjoyed a recent surge in popularity in London because it is exempt from the congestion charge and parking fees in dozens of car parks.

Several celebrities, including Jonathan Ross, Kristin Scott Thomas and Bamber Gas-coigne, have bought one and have publicly praised its very low emissions and the ease of parking it in the tightest spaces.

A total of 750 are already being driven in London and another 100 are about to be delivered to customers.

Reva, the Indian company which makes the G-Wiz, did not have to carry out the crash tests which are compulsory for cars because its vehicle is technically defined as a quadricycle.

Until the G-Wiz was introduced, most quadricycles were four-wheel motorbikes and were considered a special case which could be exempted from minimum occupant protection standards.

But Reva describes itself as a car company and markets the G-Wiz as a greener alternative to a conventional car.

The DfT decided to buy a G-Wiz and carry out its own crash test after becoming concerned by the rapid growth in sales. It found “serious safety concerns” after crashing a G-Wiz at 35mph into a deform-able barrier, which is the normal test for cars.

Stephen Ladyman, the Transport Minister, said: “The safety regulations that govern this type of vehicle were designed at a time when it was thought they would cover four-wheeled motorcycles and some small, specialised commercial vehicles. Not city runabouts that resemble small cars.

“But, given increasing envi-ronmental concerns, new vehicles that qualify as quadricycles have come to the market and are becoming more popular for urban use. Therefore it is right that we reconsider the regulations for this type of vehicle and whether safety regulations should be made more stringent.

“Now we have the initial findings of our tests we will be taking this up with the European Commission and manufacturers, and will publish more information when the full programme of tests is complete.”

The DfT carried out the test on April 24 and received the preliminary results last Friday. They were so poor that it decided to act immediately rather than wait for a few weeks until the full report was available. The Government has found itself in an awkward position because it has encouraged drivers to switch to low emission cars and has exempted the G-Wiz and other electric vehicles from paying vehicle excise duty.

A DfT spokeswoman said: “We want to help people explore environmentally friendly forms of transport but they must be safe.”

She added that a further crash test would be carried out on another electric car classed as a quadricycle. She refused to name the model.

GoinGreen, the British company which imports the G-Wiz, said it had a very good safety record, with no reported deaths or serious injuries associated with the 2,000 vehicles sold in Britain and India to date.

Keith Johnston, the company’s managing director, said the G-Wiz tended to be driven short distances in cities at low speeds. It is certified to travel on motorways but has a top speed of only 45mph. He added that the review requested by the Government should consider raising the maximum weight for quadricycles to allow safety features to be added. The G-Wiz only just complies with the existing weight limit, which is 400kg without the battery.

“We could add airbags but that would add to the weight,” he said.

Mr Johnston said that Reva had done some simulated crash tests but he did not know the details.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:58 
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author wrote:
.....given increasing envi-ronmental concerns.......

Do you think that could have been deliberate? :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 13:25 
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Keith Johnston, the company’s managing director, said the G-Wiz tended to be driven short distances in cities at low speeds. It is certified to travel on motorways but has a top speed of only 45mph.


:o :o

WHAT?!?!

So what are the regulations that allow it to be defined as a quad? Surely all the DfT need to do is tweak the regs to that these poxy little things class as cars?

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 13:29 
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Aren't all these nasty little French things like Aixams also legally classed as quadricycles?

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 13:36 
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Right. Apparently a quadricycle is a:

Quote:
3 or 4 wheel motorvehicles not exceeding 550kg unladen weight, but exceeding 50kmph and 50cc.

This is a relatively unknown group that brings the UK more in line with Europe. If these type of vehicles exceed 550kg, they then fall into the motorvehicle group.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 14:03 
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Hummh

C Charge losses me thinks

750 cars X £8 perday X 5 days X 52 Weeks = 1.56million.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 14:28 
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PeterE wrote:
Aren't all these nasty little French things like Aixams also legally classed as quadricycles?

Yes, as is the G-Wiz

From the 'Going Green' website
Quote:
Designed in California and manufactured by Indo/US joint venture Reva Electric Car Company, the G-Wiz is classified as a quadricycle (category L7e) under UK and European law.

The primary criteria for a quadricycle such as the G-Wiz are low weight (up to 400 kg unladen weight without batteries) and low power output (maximum net power 15 kw).

It isn't a car and is not tested like one. Nor is it sold pretending to have 'safety' features that it will never have.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 14:39 
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"Oh no! People are getting around the taxes! Let's... err... find something wrong with the vehicles before we can change our tax rules to include them."

I know someone who has a teeny little car which she said is classed as quad bike, but it's probably a quadricycle. It has a lawnmower engine and the petrol tank is the thing between the ground and your seat. :o

I don't think they're built for safety. On the other hand, more incentive not to crash! :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 14:40 
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article wrote:
The tiny car, made in Bangalore, India, has enjoyed a recent surge in popularity in London because it is exempt from the congestion charge and parking fees in dozens of car parks.

There’ll be a super-massive black hole in the government’s finances if everyone switched over to these things, that’s why they are ramping up plans for national congestion charging – for which no vehicle will be exempt.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 15:00 
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Quote:
FROM THE ARTICLE
It is certified to travel on motorways but has a top speed of only 45mph.




HC
227: Prohibited vehicles. Motorways MUST NOT be used by pedestrians, holders of provisional car or motorcycle driving licences unless exempt, riders of motorcycles under 50cc, cyclists and horse riders. Certain slow-moving vehicles and those carrying oversized loads (except by special permission), agricultural vehicles and most invalid carriages are also prohibited


So has it got special permission , or is 45 not slow on the Motorway

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 15:08 
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smeggy wrote:
article wrote:
The tiny car, made in Bangalore, India, has enjoyed a recent surge in popularity in London because it is exempt from the congestion charge and parking fees in dozens of car parks.

There’ll be a super-massive black hole in the government’s finances if everyone switched over to these things, that’s why they are ramping up plans for national congestion charging – for which no vehicle will be exempt.


Yep, the next big threat it the 496 Squ miles of Greater Manchester Road Pricing trials.

the plans are supposed to be revealed on May 25th for council and public consultation.

you can bet the Consulations will be badly biased for the idea.

the fact they are wanting to borrow an extra 1.9 billion to trial it, and to pay for it by borrowing against the projected future profits of congestion charging (Me and You) in Greater Manchester is sickening.

A referendum to deliver a resounding NO is what is needed.

If they successfully force Greater Manchester through a national scheme would be next.

Please sign this petition here, and please please pass it around as far as possible

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Manccongestion/

and please sign up to this forum for the information the goverment does not want you to see.

http://www.traveltax.org.uk/

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 15:09 
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Smeggy - been listening to Muse by any chance.. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 16:42 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Smeggy - been listening to Muse by any chance.. :roll:

I had to Google ‘Muse’ to find out what you meant; I assume you mean the band? I can’t say I like the look of them! I usually give conspiracy nuts a wide berth, unless they're talking about motoring ;)
Just recently on El Reg, I’ve recently made a 911 nutjob disappear in a puff of his own logic :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 16:50 
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smeggy wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Smeggy - been listening to Muse by any chance.. :roll:

I had to Google ‘Muse’ to find out what you meant; I assume you mean the band? I can’t say I like the look of them! I usually give conspiracy nuts a wide berth, unless they're talking about motoring ;)
Just recently on El Reg, I’ve recently made a 911 nutjob disappear in a puff of his own logic :lol:


Go here

http://www.muse.mu/index.php

click on Media in the bottom

all of their songs can be played back through your internet explorer.

Just a quick breakdown of the good tracks.

Showbiz (their first album, its ok, but only ok)

Muscle Museum

Showbiz

Unintended

Uno


Origin of Symmetry (2nd album, much much better)

New Born

Bliss

Plug in Baby

Darkshines

Megalomania


Absolution (This the one that launched them into the big time)

It’s all good on this one.


Black Holes and Revelations

Again all good.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 23:14 
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SHOCK HORROR!!!!! HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!!

"Small cars that don't weigh very much found not to be very good in crashes"!

GIVE ME STRENGTH!

I just can't believe this sort of stuff is news to anyone!

Yes, there is an EC class of vehicle known as "quadricycle" and this is sub-divided into quadricycles and "light quadricycles". The vehicle in question is, I think, the former as are the Aixam and the Ligier. They must weigh less than 400kg unladen and have an engine power of less than 15kW (or about 20 horse in "old money". Needless to say, 45MPH is pretty much top whack with that sort of "grunt".

Some years ago, I was asked to do a report on one for the (then) Invalid Vehicle Service who were thinking of replacing their AC three wheelers (the little blue ones) with these. I have to say that I've never driven anything more odious in my life - dog slow, noisy and harsh with all the crashworthiness of a wet papr bag. Even sillier is the idea that you can conveniently "forget" about the weight of the batteries in an electric one. This means that in use, they won't be too dissimilar to a lightly loaded Fiesta at times!

Sorry Mr. Ladyman but this:

"Stephen Ladyman, the Transport Minister, said: “The safety regulations that govern this type of vehicle were designed at a time when it was thought they would cover four-wheeled motorcycles and some small, specialised commercial vehicles. Not city runabouts that resemble small cars. "

..is an utter load of cobblers - of the sort that might be uttered by someone who was trying to distance himself from these vehicles. Those rules have been around for a good 10 years now and the Aixams and Ligiers have been taking advantage of them for about that sort of time too. They have always been intended to be "city runabouts".

Now if people think that having one of these is the best way of saving the planet, that's fine by me -they are pretty damned frugal, but they just need to accept that there's a price to pay for that. What will tomorrow's headlines be?

"SCOOP! - Mopeds not as safe as 4x4s in accidents"! (?)


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 05:47 
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Makes it pretty plain to see all they want our C Charge money so fill their coffers.

they are not interested in the enviroment.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 07:22 
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Mole wrote:
SHOCK HORROR!!!!! HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!!

"Small cars that don't weigh very much found not to be very good in crashes"!

GIVE ME STRENGTH!

I just can't believe this sort of stuff is news to anyone!


Yeah. Exactly. Or:

SHOCK! HORROR! HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!

"Quadricycle found to be as safe as quadricycles."

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:38 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Right. Apparently a quadricycle is a:

Quote:
3 or 4 wheel motorvehicles not exceeding 550kg unladen weight, but exceeding 50kmph and 50cc.

Assuming that's right, I reckon that a "Caterham 7" falls within those limits!! :-) :-)

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 13:11 
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I guess Sixy is looking at the DVLA licensing definitions?

The type approval definitions are different - and those are the ones that would have been used to decide what crash tests it had to do (or didn't have to do )!

Quite why the DVLA should choose not to align their categories with the ones used when type approvin ghte vehicles is beyind me but I'm sure they know what they're doing because they're "the government"!

Obviously, the Caterham isn't a quadricycle as far as type approval is concerned (although various kit car manufacturers are getting close to 400kg and could certainly manage it if they put a sub-20 horsepower engine in it)! The only thing then is that no sensible person would buy one.

There was talk of doing a "Caterham-inspired" vehicle with a Hyabusa bike engine in it and "restrictors" to get it down to 20 BHP :wink: as this would enable the manufacturer to take advantage of much lower emissions requirements and (back to the case in point!) no crash testing to speak of.

Naturally, once the vehicle was registered, the owner could do what he or she liked with it - which might, possibly, involve removing the restrictors... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 13:16 
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Yes I was looking at the licencing definitons - it was all I could find... :roll:

It seems silly to me to base the categories on weight and power alone - surely consideration should be made to body or lack thereof and expected usage as well? :?

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