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 Post subject: worrying trends
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 18:41 
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first we had

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... highlight=

now on bbc news http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070 ... e80_1.html

10 deaths in two accidents, IMO a minimum of 4 innocent deaths due to the actions of others, one common factor the age group all around / under the 25 year old


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:10 
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It's not a trend. Young men have always had bad car crashes involving others. The reporting has become more hysterical now that the insurance companies and the Government are flailing round for some way to reduce the KSIs now that cameras have been shown not to work.

Their idea is to basically take under 25s off the road (or go a long way towards it). The insurers have tried it by raising premiums to insane levels but all this has produced is lots of people driving uninsured.

The only possibility is better training but if you are a young man (or increasingly, woman) your exuberance gets the better of any lecture. Just think back. Didn't you do some stupid stunts when you were 18? You were just lucky though.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:14 
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Bloody hell I was just in chesterfield today. :o

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:34 
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malcolmw wrote:
It's not a trend.


I'm afraid that there is a trend. Young drivers are proportionately more crash involved than they used to be. By one measure (and I don't have these figures at my fingertips) the risk of a young driver being crash involved has risen by about 30% in a decade.

I blame bad policy and false safety messages myself.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:42 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
... the risk of a young driver being crash involved has risen by about 30% in a decade.

I blame bad policy and false safety messages myself.


If you are right, it's more likely to be a manifestation of the degeneration of society generally with young people less polite and understanding of others and the authorities.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:49 
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malcolmw wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
... the risk of a young driver being crash involved has risen by about 30% in a decade.

I blame bad policy and false safety messages myself.


If you are right, it's more likely to be a manifestation of the degeneration of society generally with young people less polite and understanding of others and the authorities.


That's not what my work on driver quality indicates.

Driver quality is amazingly vulnerable to 'beliefs' and 'attitudes' and beliefs and attitudes are going all wrong with bad road safety policy.

Clearly there are also various social changes and it would be hard to determine the relative importance. But drivers behaviour is frequently governed by its own independent sets of beliefs and social norms.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 19:59 
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i have witnessed some very bad driving habits with the younger drivers, the only words that spring to mind are invincible, indestructable or a damnright selfish attitude.

i dont think we can tar every young driver with the same brush, but i can recall many times where somebodys driving skills / attitude has raised my goat, inevitably i say to myself t##t, and the driver is you guessed it


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 20:13 
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Another. An off-duty police rider this time, refusing to stop :o

BBC news
This is London

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 22:20 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
It's not a trend.

I'm afraid that there is a trend. Young drivers are proportionately more crash involved than they used to be. By one measure (and I don't have these figures at my fingertips) the risk of a young driver being crash involved has risen by about 30% in a decade.

I blame bad policy and false safety messages myself.

I also feel that it is, paradoxically, made worse by policy reducing the numbers of under-21s learning to drive, which reduces the "herd effect" which in the past acted as a kind of restraint on behaviour.

Those who still do learn to drive will tend to be those who will drive more and may well also take more risks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 22:36 
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so whats the solution,

i read somewhere about a proposed restriction / curfew on young drivers carrying passengers / driving during darkness !!!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 04:13 
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Quote:
so whats the solution

Mend three things:

1) Road safety policy
2) Parental respnsibility
3) Trafpol presence


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 07:07 
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There may be more factors here than just young male drivers
The m4 crash was a joy rider who had just been early released from prison and was under the probation service

then you have young foreign drivers who have lower standards of training

you have completely illegal foreign drivers with no training, licence, insurance

you have eastern block cars , left hand drive

The policy of confiscating cars and potential prison sentences and drivers on 9 points raises the stakes. This could increase the number of people who choose to flee.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 09:48 
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and just to back up my point... http://www.thisisbournemouth.co.uk/disp ... danger.php
Quote:
THE increasing numbers of foreign migrants in Dorset could be fuelling the number of drink-driving cases and road accidents, it is feared.

Cultural differences and difficulty in understanding road signs could be a key factor in the number of serious road accidents concerning migrant workers.

The issue was raised at a meeting of Dorset Police Authority, following Cambridgeshire Chief Constable Julie Spence's call for more staff and resources to cope with the pressure caused by an influx of migrants.

Authority members were told the amount spent by police on interpreters in Dorset had doubled to £200,000 in just two years.

And Dorset Police is also setting up a driver awareness course for people coming in from Eastern Europe who may not know the rules of the road.

Cllr Nick King, a member of the authority and the Conservatives' prospective parliamentary candidate for Mid Dorset and North Poole, said: "We heard at the meeting that traffic offences and road traffic accidents are increasing and that one of the reasons for this is felt to be the number of migrant workers in the county who come from a different culture and are not used to our roads. This is obviously of great concern."

advertisementHe said Dorset's problems are compounded because it is allocated the lowest budget of any other police authority in the UK.

‘Maybe some people who come here do not think the British police apply to them’
Arek Marciszek, editor of Polish-language newspaper the Polski Echo

"There is an increased burden on the police and there is decreasing resources and we are not being given the funding that we should."

Cllr John Lofts, vice-chairman of Dorset Police Authority, said: "It's a regrettable fact that some of the new additions to the EU have an attitude to drink-driving which we might have had in this country 20 or 30 years ago.

"Unfortunately, this is not a surprise because the evidence for it has been building up."

Arek Marciszek, editor of the Polish-language newspaper the Polski Echo, believes many migrants were not aware of Britain's drink driving limits.

"I think an awareness course is a good idea," he said. "My personal opinion is that maybe some people who come here do not think the British police apply to them, they do not see them as their police."

Dorset South MP and government minister Jim Knight said: "It would be false to say more immigrants equals more crime. If there are particular issues with translators, I am happy to take up their concerns.

"Migrants are positively contributing to the economy, in particular the agricultural and leisure industries which are dependent on them. The leisure industry is the bedrock of our economy."

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 20:05 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
so whats the solution

Mend three things:

1) Road safety policy
2) Parental respnsibility
3) Trafpol presence


only road safety policy IMO is achievable

2) gone are the days where you could discipline a child in school or for that matter in the home, at 16 there is no hope of installing respect, i know a few kids from good parental backgrounds who are little toerags, if they don't have respect god help the others

3) there was a thread back about traf pol numbers dropping by a 1000, i queried this with a trafpol and his reply was with the increase in national security there has been a need to put armed coppers at airports / ports the resources were taken from the trafpol not fronline beat officers, i dont know numbers but at the smallest airport if there were say 6 officers a shift on airport duty, 3 shifts a day thats 18 officers out of circulation, Heathrow Gatwick there must be hundreds, we could always deploy PCSO,s


Quote:
anton

then you have young foreign drivers who have lower standards of training

you have completely illegal foreign drivers with no training, licence, insurance

you have eastern block cars , left hand drive


exactly the number of Polish workers around is frightening


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 14:25 
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I don't think it's just a "young male" thing to blame for the increase. Kids of that age have always been willing to take risks. I was, you were, your kids will be. One thing they are not though, is stupid. (Lets leave aside the criminals for the sake of this argument)

I passed my test 7 years ago, and one thing that my driving instructor drilled into me on the way home is that the driving test is complete bollocks (his words) and now that I had that bit of paper I could maybe think about starting to learn to drive now. Fortunately I'd already figured this out.

Now lets look at today, anyone who drives soon figures out that speed cameras are a con and that there is more to safety than sticking to numbers, not to mention all the other twaddle that comes out of the government claiming to be "safety advice". This is a relatively recent phenomenon though.

So, you're a young drive, you have just passed your test and been given a lecture about how half of what you have just been taught is bollocks. You are seeing obvious bollocks coming from the government claiming to be safety advice. You have this government issued book called the highway code what are it's likely contents? Good sound common sense advice? nah.

Add in the youthful "I know best" attiude and you have a recipe that will cause them to ignore even the good advice. Seatbelts? don't need 'em. Dip don't dazzle? Oh wait they haven't run that one since the 70s. Sharp bend ahead, slow down a bit? Yeah, just like how you wanted me to slow down to 30 half a mile before the roundabout. Oh, shit, that bend actually is quite sharp. Help, I'm going sideways because I was never taught how to handle a skid and I have bald tyres because no-one's ever stopped me and told me off for them and I can't afford new ones because I'm paying £300/month insurance. What do I do now? *crunch* Hello Mr. Lamppost/Volvo/ditch.


Fortunately most people here are better than that, but is it really so hard to see why it happens?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 14:32 
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Lum wrote:
So, you're a young drive, you have just passed your test and been given a lecture about how half of what you have just been taught is bollocks. You are seeing obvious bollocks coming from the government claiming to be safety advice. You have this government issued book called the highway code what are it's likely contents? Good sound common sense advice? nah.

Well, absolutely, the lack of credibility of official messages is a major problem, which has been made much worse by speed cameras and "speed kills".

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 14:46 
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PeterE wrote:
Well, absolutely, the lack of credibility of official messages is a major problem ...

Just ask any investor in Northern Rock what they thought after the first official announcements that everything was OK.

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