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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 14:13 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 151708.stm

Quote:
Officers face charges over crash

Two police officers are to face charges of causing death by dangerous driving after a crash in which a man died.

Peter Williams, 67, of Bolton-le-Sands, Lancashire, died after his car collided with a marked police car in Carnforth, near Lancaster, on 2 November 2006.

The police car was in a convoy of two vehicles on a training run to test an electronic speed camera device.

Pc Sean Schofield, 38, and Pc Andrew Massingham, 41, are to appear before Liverpool Magistrates on 11 February.

Third officer

The decision follows an Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the fatal incident.

The crash happened on the B6254 between the villages of Arkholme and Over Kellet, near Lancaster.

A third officer who was the passenger in the car being driven by Pc Schofield will not face criminal charges, the IPCC said.

Mr Williams was in the car with his wife Jean, who on their way to the Yorkshire Dales for the weekend.

Retired academic Mr Williams suffered severe chest and leg injuries and died in Lancaster Royal Infirmary the following day.

His wife sustained multiple fractures, while Pc Schofield suffered internal bruising and his colleague suffered a broken leg.

A Lancashire Constabulary spokesman said: "We can confirm that two Lancashire police officers have been summonsed to appear before Liverpool Magistrates Court on 11 February 2008 to face charges of causing death by dangerous driving."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 15:15 
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I guess there is the possibility that the driver being trained was a relative new recruit to the relevant Traffic Department. I'm led to believe that some forces put TrafPol recruits through the 4 week Advanced Course then TPAC, Vascar, etc..

What I can't quite understand is how either officer managed to get themselves into such a situation (i.e. being charged with Causing Death by Dangeorus Driving).

I await with interest more information about the circumstances of the collision.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 15:45 
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Different version...

Daily Express

Quote:
PCS FACE CHARGES OVER FATAL CRASH

Two police officers have been summoned to face charges of causing death by dangerous driving, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said.

Pc Sean Schofield, 38, and Pc Andrew Massingham, 41, of Lancashire Constabulary, are due to appear at Liverpool Magistrates' Court on February 11 in connection with the death of 67-year-old Peter Williams.

Mr Williams, of Bolton-le-Sands, Lancashire, died after his car hit a marked police Volvo V70 on the B6254 between the villages of Arkholme and Over Kellet, near Lancaster, on November 2.

The Volvo, driven by Pc Schofield, was one of two police cars on a training run to test an electronic system for measuring vehicle speed. Pc Messingham was driving the lead vehicle in the convoy.

A third officer, who was the passenger in the car being driven by Pc Schofield, will not face criminal charges.

The decision follows an IPCC investigation into the fatal incident.

The crash happened as Mr Williams and his wife Jean were travelling to enjoy a weekend break in the Yorkshire Dales on November 2 last year.

As the two marked police cars came round a bend on the narrow country road in broad daylight, the lead vehicle hit the Williams' VW Touran head-on.

Retired academic Mr Williams suffered severe chest and leg injuries and died in Lancaster Royal Infirmary the following day. His wife sustained multiple fractures, while Pc Schofield suffered internal bruising and his colleague suffered a broken leg.

Lancashire Police did not say why the speed monitoring equipment was being tested on an accident-prone minor road rather than a motorway where conditions are safer.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 15:54 
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It will be interesting to learn where the Touran was on the road when it was struck i.e. did the Touran stray or the lead police vehicle or both?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 20:12 
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I've just "toured" the road on google earth....it doesn't look like a "narrow country lane" to me. There are quite a lot of cars on the road and the road seems wider than you would expect from the news description. Lots of SLOW markings along with unbroken white lines.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 20:34 
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The Jury is out after a long trial.

They included a site visit during the trial, for which the road was closed for a period. During the visit, they may have seen posters appealing for witnesses to yet another fatality on the road - which might have influenced their thinking towards the danger of travelling at the alleged speeds on such a road.

This road is not suitable even for 60 mph along much of it's length, and as the prosecutor said, is beset with agricultural traffic, bends, hidden dips and entrances.

Video in the opposite direction to that travelled by the police here and here
Ignore the captions - they got shifted when I had to trim the video to get YouTube to accept it!

Crash scene is 4 minutes and 10 seconds into the film (part 1).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 22:17 
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Sigh. Driven along it many times,. The :neko: even raced on some meet on it .. much to our alarm as she was young.. recent to this country .. and PREGNANT /.. when she did that. I went beserk with her .. as did the Mad Doc at the time.

But the bit she rode on.. was not where this incident occurred and you have to be aware that when a road becomes part of some "event" - we .. err.. close it off to the public.


Would we have trained like that. I recall my very first post on this board trying to re-assure wllcove that we are not laws unto ourselves and that all training routes have to be cleared and passed in thourough detail before hand.

I will state though - just to make sure that folk know the reality of police training that

1. Yes .. I have played the "villain" in hte past to train up as to how to "box in and contain SAFELY

2. My role as "villain" was to train our team to contain siad "villain" safely when in a situation when this villain endangers the public - only my style of "villain" was not quite as reality in that I did not EVER place the public in distress. :roll: :popcorn:

3. Would I have chosen a country B road?

No.. we do train on them of course ... but we make sure that we do so safely and that account is taken of the public - which means plans get changed accordingly.

4. Should these officers have been charged?


Oh YES. If all evidence indicated there was a charge to answer.


5. Should they be found guitly as charged?


Oh.. that's a loaded question as all evidence )as released by press) and actual knowledge of that particular road at that paricular point suggests - oh --- shall I call it .. "unwise decision making" and a resultant death due to such lack of wisdom.


. I do know the road and whilst we do train to catch out idiots on such roads - we do not ever place the public knowingly at risk in this area.


Should they have been charged with such severe offences?


I have to say .. yes - if all investigation led to such suspicion.. same as it would for anyone else.

One hopes the trial establishes a just result for all invoived - and salvation of consciences. :wink:

. In public - I will have to say that we are all subject to the same level of justice when we do something which leads to a very serious incident such as this one.

If anything - I will hope that whatever happens does improve and set out firmer guidelines as regards training.


Our patch are always looking and seeking to improve - and improve with "safety for all" within the background.

I admitted to joining police rather flippantly once as "liking the idea of nice cars". Oh.. that may have been the case when I was 22/23 on graduatiion.

But as I have developed .. learned.. matured.....


justice.. fair play.. doing the job WELL.. delivering what the public requires and needs...

That somehow matters a hell of a lot more to me.

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:20 
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jomukuk wrote:
I've just "toured" the road on google earth....it doesn't look like a "narrow country lane" to me. There are quite a lot of cars on the road and the road seems wider than you would expect from the news description. Lots of SLOW markings along with unbroken white lines.



It's a typical rural B road. Has a lot of dips - steep ones as it appoaches the crash scene, Yes - it has "history" with the local race organisers - but they never took the race to Over Kellett - and, shortly after the village Over Kellett, this road turns into an urban 30 mph as it goes through Carnforth# and meets with A6.

It has double whites and single whites along its length. I would not say it was a "quiet road" on any one normal day - which makes a decision to train at extreme high speed along it "questionable" :popcorn:

Ern's video establishes width and overall "feel" of how the averagely competent member of the public would be driving along it.

When we are training - like all other road users on the road, we have to be aware of other folk and adjust accordingly. :scratchchin: Not one press report on this case reflects well though :roll:

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:16 
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Having spent a few hours reading through a really long thread on this tragic tale - there are one or two rather worrying comments made.


Namely - the experience, skills and training up to what we hope to meet our demandingly high standards. :roll:

Now - :scratchchin: We all have various skills and abilities and I definitely do not possess the skills of young Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Loeb. In our team - all have passed the course to very demanding standard - but there are members of the public who are equally able just the same. We have just enhanced and developed further - certain skills - namely the teamwork .. the ability to box in a felon - but we try to do so with full regard to safety for all. That's the remit and the basic rubric within those training programmes.

We have members of our team who have trained from scratch to our RPU team. No driving licence on entry - but accepted to our course based on what we judgd to have the makings of a decent advanced driver. - and they have out-classed some who enhanced already well able and previously acquired skills on our training courses.

No training imbues automatically with the ability NEVER to "get it badly wrong". It can help us difuse and deal with a situation.

It can help us defend ourselves.. plan efficiently and effectively.

It does not ever guarantee we will never make mistakes.. have collisions or simply get things wrong - misjudge a situation - which can be or even look "dangerous" but may be down to "carelessness/inconsideration" - which still does not make things any better. :roll: in real terms :roll: - but can matter when we are in a court room facing a judge and jury. :popcorn: :bunker:

BUT :stop:


- but we can never rule anything out - especially when driving at speed on a rural road - where let's face it - where Co Durham fails significantly if you look at our stats a bit more closely :roll: (BIkers ., motorists who misjudge these roads and even police and other emergency trained staff can and do likewise.). We tend to call off pursuits because we have a duty of care to the public, our teams out there and even the villain we are trying to rein in.


But let's look at this a bit more closely. The deceased was 67 years old. Let's say he had - say 40 years or so of driving experience behind him. A retired academic. Possibly no blots on his licence and just supposing, for one second that there were - then the "transgression" would more than likely the result of being a smidgeon above the lolly in Kodak County perhaps.

So ... an experienced driver in his own right and to the required standard of competence and more than likely never broken a traffic law in his life.

We have on the other side - two drivers who had the benefit of very advanced training. Th argument seems to be that "they should have known better". Indeed, No one person can realistically disagree on that.

But when we come to court case and opinions that this training will count in their defence - we are not quite on such a "winner". :roll: Past expertise does not really count for that much when you are facing some very hard and searching questions on a witness stand - on oath - as to what you did and why you did whatever on this ONE occasion. You are being questioned on what you did in relation to this incident for which you are accused of wrong-doing - and it is up to the accused to convince those sitting in that court room that he or she is innocent of being "dangerous" in this case..

Now how far "dangerous" they were, in real terms, (sigh.. :popcorn: ) really depends on what the CPS loaded up against them in court and how they presented the case. The defence team will be trying to find chinks in their case/allegations to sway towards that soupcon of doubt in the minds of a jury.

But I then read one comment in that thread - comparing to the road's history of "blackspot" should also then not be a factor in a current case.


Again - we are talking of a road which has a history of being dangerous.

Folk complaining of speed cams suggest that the cams should only be placed on roads known to be "black spots" :roll;



:roll: Such roads in scam pratnership zones have "Speed Cams" on them based on "what happened in past three-four years" - or are heavily re-engineered and polcied - like the Cat and Fiddle and its similar roads.

So again - :scratchchhin: the fact that a road is known to be "hazardous" will certainly feature in a court case trying to establish and test out how far dangerous or careless or negiligent or inconisderate the accused was on the occasion. I have used the road's history in the past when presenting the collated case evidence to the CPS for their case in the past :roll:

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 23:16 
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My concern over this road would be that the numerous entrances and exits to rural (agricultural too) traffic, could present a hazard at a moments notice, and the drivers of these vehicles could not reasonably have expected to encounter a vehicle driving at the speeds indicated.

If you watch the video, at one point there is a quad bike towing a trailer with hedge cutting equipment on board! EASILY hidden in one of those dips.

There exists a far more suitable road - wider, faster, better sightlines etc., which at the A65 end (the start point for these officers) is only a mere 900 metres away, and exits onto the M6 at Lancaster, just one junction south of the B road where the accident occurred. :(

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