Safe Speed Forums

Hoon backs speed camera overhaul

Transport secretary Geoff Hoon has said traditional fixed-point speed cameras may be replaced by "fairer" versions which measure drivers' average speed. He told the Sunday Times he understood why cameras which measure speed at just one point were not popular. He suggested average-speed cameras were better as they encouraged safer driving and also reduced fuel consumption.

Mr Hoon is also considering cutting the drink-drive limit and tougher fixed penalties for speeding motorists. He told the newspaper that the traditional fixed-point cameras were viewed by the public as "arbitrary" and "unfair". "Spot speed cameras are seen by some people as unfair because when you are driving along you perhaps don't notice your speed. "What is interesting about average-speed cameras is that [limits] are largely observed by motorists," he said.

A Department for Transport spokeswoman clarified that Mr Hoon was talking anecdotally and that any evidence collected around the matter would be provided by local road safety partnerships - comprising councils, police and other institutions. They would also have any say over where new cameras were located.

But average speed-cameras are often found near road-works. The MP for Ashfield, Nottinghamshire said: "There is an area between my home and my constituency where they are widening the M1 and there are average-speed cameras.

"It reduces fuel consumption. By encouraging that smoother flow of traffic you are getting greater reliability." His comments come just a few weeks after Swindon became the first town in the UK to scrap fixed-point speed cameras.

Under the current system, one camera - the entry camera - films the vehicle's number plate as it enters a controlled zone and starts a timer. When it leaves the zone, the exit camera films both the car and its number plate. If there is a match with the entry camera, the speed is calculated, and if the speed limit is exceeded the evidence is passed on to the police.

The average speed camera is dependent on Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology.

Mr Hoon, who described himself as an "enthusiastic motorist", also confessed to the newspaper that he had been caught speeding in the past. He said: "I was doing 42mph on a country road that at the time was a 30mph limit." A few months later the council had raised the maximum speed limit on that road to 40mph. Referring to it, Mr Hoon said:"I still have a sense of resentment."

He said he is also planning on consulting about the current drink-driving legislation. Presently those found with 80mg or more alcohol in 100ml of blood can face up to six months' jail or a £5,000 fine plus at least a one year ban. The consultation would look at whether this should be cut to 50mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood - so falling in line with most of the rest of Europe. This is the equivalent for most people of less than a pint of beer.

Police may in the future issue penalties of up to six points for those found speeding by 15mph in urban areas or 25mph on motorways.

Edmund King, the president of motoring body the AA, told the BBC: "These cameras are very effective when they are near road-works or on narrow lanes or motorways but there are still problems which must be factored in." He said driving at 80mph on a clear motorway a safe distance away from the car in front was fine but not everybody would do this.

He said: "Everyone sticks to just under the speed limit but there are those who always want to be ahead of the pack and this results in bunching and tailgating. That is just as dangerous as speeding."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7718279.stm

Oh, ffs, doesn't he realise that SPECS demand obsessive speedo concentration throughout the zone, rather than at one individual spot?

They are infinitely worse for road safety than Gatsos.

They also must cause massive displacement on to other roads.

It's like walking round the supermarket with the store detective on your trail - if you had the opportunity, you'd go somewhere else.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I read that in the Times and he's trying really hard to come over as a friend of the motorist, while advocating specs and reduced blood-alcohol levels.

And I'll be riding to work on a chocolate unicorn before specs REPLACE gatsos, they'll come in as well, let's face it.

Ah yes, "Buff" Hoon, who did such a sterling job as defence secretary!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

We do not do gimmick or unwarranted cams on our patch/


I am not complacent as we can always improve ,, but we are consistent in our below average KSI stats each year

Poiice officers on aggreagate perform more effectively than sole reliance on some gimmicky gadget etc.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Without rehearsing all the counter arguments on these subjects I give you the following points:

- Why the obsession with controlling speed if it contributes so little to accidents?
- Note the change in emphasis from safety to economy/reliability
- Will the penalties for drink driving be reduced like on the continent?

The usual Government line based on controlling the populace.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Also in the Daily Telegraph Average-speed cameras could replace "spot" cameras on Britian's roads.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Average speed cameras are said to be going to be installed over longer distances on non-dual carriageway roads (i.e. ones with many junctions etc.) instead of the fixed point cameras now.

By the Law of Unintended Consequences, this will impose an enormous responsibility on local councils to ensure that EVERY sign and traffic order over these extended controlled routes is correctly implemented. If they are not then a speeding conviction will be void. Given the law of averages, there will very likely be an error somewhere along the route and, IMO, Nick Freeman will find it.

At least with fixed cameras they only have to check the immediate area.

Still, we all know the real reason for these cameras - and it isn't to save fuel.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

So, you have a car with a trip computer and you know where the cameras are. You get held up in a queue, which means you can make your average up by going well over the limit for a while.

This is safe??

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Yet another method to 'steal' money from motorists and get a few more off the road!

Average Speed Cameras have been mentioned as being on motorways, particularly around road works. I think we can all see the purpose of this when there are men working on the motorways, sometimes with not much more than a plastic barrier between them and the traffic and the traffic is busy, however, on several occasions we have driven on the M5 to either Bristol of Birmingham airports at around 3 am in the morning. There is no-one working on the road works, virtually no traffic at all, yet we still have to try and keep to 40mph! It is very difficult to do that on a motorway, when you are the only vehicle!

As far as economy goes, I always believed that the optimum speed for most vehicles was around 56 to 58 mph, so how do all these 20mph limits assist with economy? Our council have admitted that when it is necessary for the speed through the town to be slower then it is more or less self regulating, however there is no reason for the odd vehicle that passes through the town in the early hours to drive at 20mph, but no doubt, if spotted by a bored copper, they would be done! More money for the treasury! The council have also admitted that there have not been any injury accidents through out town in well over 5 years, but they have still brought in the 20mph limit and spent thousands on signs, despite the police saying that they do not agree with the side roads being 20mph and they would not be able to police it anyway!

As already pointed out, with average speed cameras if you are held up within the area, then you can speed and not be done! Although speed is rarely the cause of accidents - or should I say competent driving at the appropriate speed for the road is rarely the cause of accidents, but people driving pathetically slowly are much more likely to cause an accident, even if they are not actually involved, it is the way people drive that determines whether or not they are safe or likely to cause an accident and this cannot be determined by cameras, fixed or average speed. Likewise, road conditions play a part in safe speed, it is not always a case of driving to the speed limit of the road as bad weather can cause this to be dangerous, but people tend to vary their speeds a lot less when they are constantly being told to drive at speeds too low for the road, under normal circumstances.

Perhaps when more people end up on the unemployed register because they have reached their 12 points, in other words, in the majority of cases, have been unlucky 3 times, and are banned from driving and have no viable alternative to get to work, or driving was a part of their job, the government might just look at it again, although I doubt it, I expect they will just penalise these people or the more!

Most of the roads I use, I really struggle to average anything like the speed limit, so no worries for me!

Purely by co-incidence the SPECS cameras also track every vehicle that passes through unlike a Gatso. So you get a full log of every vehicle to travel passed key stratgic points on the highway network but, because fines will be generated you're getting someone else to pay for your snooping...genius.

Now apply that to the London Congestion zone, a complete log of all vehicles entering and leaving central london paid for by the motorist.

C'mon Hoon, how about a little honesty?

My wife observed on PH site.


Not about safety.. All about cash.




Get a Coyote. Truly legal.. truly

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
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Unlike a gatso maybe, but not unlike a truvelo. Truvelos' can be used for static observation as well.
Note that SPECS systems, because they feature intense IR emitters, can also be used at night for observation. And they are going to be placed in streets everywhere soon.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Hey, guess what everyone, you know all those speed cameras we've been putting up.....well you'd never have guessed it at the time, and we were just as suprised as you by this, well, they also, it seems allow us to keep tabs on you all.....ahem, help us in the fight against terrosim/antisocial behaviour/non labour voters etc etc

I think you mean RedSpeed devices. Truvelo Combi SMc uses a film camera much like the gatso cameras. RedSpeed ones have two (or three) CCD cameras and have a connection to the head office...

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Andrew.

The new[er] truvelos use digital cameras.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Oh, the ones all on a thin (comparatively) pole? I didn't realise they were in use yet. Scary.

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Andrew.

Speed is easily measured, and is the chief factor determining the severity of an unavoided impact.
However, beyond that point, the average person demonstrates a marvelous ability to misunderstand such arguments as:
free travelling speed only matches impact speed in the cases of complete idiocy and intent
speed is very seldom the chief causal factor of collisions themselves

While an individual driver of statistically average prowess probably considers the likelihood of a collision less than 1% over the course of a lifetime, all of the 'agencies' which choose to concern themselves with 'road safety' see collisions as 100% certainties daily. In order to be seen doing something about it, they focus on reducing the severity of what they consider inevitable, which seems easier than making the inevitable 'somewhat more so'. [Which leads me to my next point ...]

While most of us are fairly certain that a shift in policy toward better driver education and testing would pay off handsomely in the long term:
A proper understanding of better driver education and testing is not easily understood in digestible 'bitesize' bits
It seems very unlikely to demonstrate any benefit in the short term, during which 'something must be done already'
A road safety policy which focuses on prevention and deterrence, rather than punishment, would be like cold turkey to those who survive off the present conditions.

Such conditions include the current state of education and upbringing generally, which has fostered a culture which would rather not be able to tell the difference between the probability of a consequence, and the severity of a consequence.

The above is considered separately from the trend toward techology in all things, which has replaced live enforcement of road safety generally with automated enforcement of speed specifically, and, with ISA, threatens to replace the driver; ironically, the monetary justification for automated speed enforcement.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation