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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 08:04 
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This incident occured last May

The initial reports suggest that the officer was chasing a stolen car. I had a bit of a problem believing that given the group this girl was with had crossed the road before the collision. One thing which struck me was the comment from one of the group that he though Hayley was behind him. I think she had perhaps stopped, turned as young girls do, to blow a kiss up the the boyfriend watching from his window. It was thus hardly surprising that he went out of mind with raw emotion und had to be tasered to bring to control. (This incident sparked angry mini-riots at the time in this area of Newcastle.)

I was originally "tea und sympathy" for the police officer as the first reports suggest he was chasing a stolen car. Now more details emerge in course of the hearing - und we now see why he was charged with a very serious charge indeed.


Again the police officer appears to claim "police business... exemption" as excuse. But this ist arrogance: it sort of implies that the officer believes himself to be above the law or can kill und "get away with it".

NO :furious: The public at large deserve better than that from their police officers. We need to know that if we are ever on the receiving end of their grossly unprofessional errors of judgement - we und our families get some justice for our lives here.


. But this exemption only applies to "breaking the Road Traffic Act" when a genuine emergency und it still means a duty of care to the public. It does not mean they can kill someone und never be held to account for this. To claim otherwise would imply that there would be one rule for them und another for everyone else.

It would also mean that their hapless victims receive even lesser justice than if mown down by the unlicenced chav in the first place.

I have neither respect nor time nor patience for the police officer who thinks he ist above the law und untouchable in this way.


It ist not ANTI-POLICE nor anti-establishment to hold this opinion by the way. It ist an opinion held by most decently minded in this country: that all are equal under the same laws.


I highlight the items in the Mail's take (chosen for its spectacular journalese :shock: )

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/769 ... lling-girl









http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7977136.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7977136.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/01/news-brief



http://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/ ... 5131088.jp



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... alarm.html

Take your pick of any of the above links. They all report the same FACTS as heard in the court.





Waily wrote:
94mph policeman 'killed girl, 16, as he drove without siren' on a call that was false alarm

By Paul Sims
Last updated at 10:57 AM on 01st April 2009

Add to My Stories
Hayley Adamson, 16, died after being hit by a police car chasing what its driver thought was a stolen vehicle at more than 90mph
A teenager was killed by a police car travelling at up to 94mph in a residential area without siren or lights, a court was told yesterday.
Hayley Adamson, 16, was catapulted into the air by the high-powered patrol car after she stepped into the road. She could be seen pausing before trying to dodge the Volvo driven by John Dougal.
The constable braked and swerved but was unable to avoid the youngster who died instantly.
Dougal, 41, had been using his dipped headlights but deployed none of his warning devices in his pursuit of a vehicle wrongly identified as suspicious.
His was a 'grossly disproportionate' response to the situation and had caused Hayley's death, jurors were told.
They sat silently as the final moments before the crash were played. Andrew Dallas, prosecuting, said: 'Hayley was struck a heavy blow. She was struck by the car just off-side centre.
'Hayley received multiple injuries in the impact and was declared dead at the scene.'
Later, analysis of the speedometer revealed that Dougal reached 94mph in the moments before the tragedy last May on Denton Road, Newcastle upon Tyne.




The Northumbria Police officer, who denies causing death by dangerous driving, was on patrol in the city's suburbs when an onboard computer alerted him to a suspect Renault Megane, which had passed by at 30mph.
He instantly gave chase.
Hayley, who was on a night out with friends, had just stepped into the road and was hit by the police car going at around 70mph, according to experts.





To catch a car at 30 mph?? allegedly :scratchchin:

Quote:
PC John Dougal is accused of causing the death by dangerous driving of Hayley last May, on the eve of her GCSE English exam
Mr Dallas told the court: 'During this piece of driving he had available to him but elected not to use his siren, his flashing blue lights and his flashing full beam headlights - all of which were available to him at the touch of a button.'
The Megane turned out to be that of a Czech family returning from a trip to the shops.
'The driver was driving in a perfectly normal way which would not incite any suspicion in itself,' added Mr Dallas.
'In particular, there was nothing that would suggest he was trying or even thinking about trying to evade the police car
'The defendant could easily have closed with him without travelling at anything like the speeds he chose.'

Dougal admitted he had not used his 'blues and twos' - lights and sirens - and claimed he did so so as not to cause the 'suspect' Megane to race off.
But Mr Dallas said: 'This on any view was dangerous driving, whether undertaken by a civilian, a police officer or anyone else.
'To do so without use of warning lights severely compounds the danger he represented and the dangerousness of his driving.
'Officers are expected to adopt a proportionate, measured response to the events they face.'

Mr Dallas told the jury at Newcastle Crown Court that although the internal computer had highlighted the Megane as a suspicious car it did not mean it was a high priority.
The vast majority of vehicles, he said, are flagged up for having no tax disc, no insurance, or failure to register the keeper.

The court heard that Hayley had some alcohol in her blood stream at the time of the incident which may or may not have affected her decision-making.
But Mr Dallas said it was also notoriously difficult to judge the approach speed of a fast vehicle, especially at night.
The trial continues.


I note they try to make out the girl was drunk though. Am parent of teenagers as well as babies. I do know what they can get up to.. but all the same... she was wearing white clothing. He must have seen the other people crossing ahead. He did not need to drive at that speed.

Seems a strong case ist being presented. Defence has yet to be heard of course :popcorn:

My stance of "what a fool" would be the same if this had been a member of public who blatted und killed at such an OTT speed - an unsafe speed for the conditions/situation by the way. It just happens to be a police incident. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 19:51 
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Hallo. I check my e-mail und whilst at computer - decide to update on this story.


There are one or two issues to debate .. WITHOUT SPECULATING on the case unduly. Defence now being heard. I will put the link to that after dealing with this one which opens up some rather interesting points which extend BEYOND this case. These are worth discussion in my opinion.


It should be remembered that the IPCC as in POLICE gave the files to the CPS to see if charges to answer. The Prosecution are using the POLICE'S OWN EVIDENCE against this driver. So no one person can be accused of "bib -bashing or being "anti-police". :roll:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7986503.stm

I will highlight the comments in this piece which I think "of interest worthy of discussion"

BBC etc wrote:
Police crash speed 'unjustified'

Pc John D denies causing death by dangerous driving

A policeman's decision to accelerate to 90mph shortly before he hit and killed a schoolgirl was "disproportionate", :yesyes: Newcastle Crown Court has heard.

Pc John Dl denies causing death by dangerous driving over the crash which fatally injured Hayley A, 16.

Police driving expert Gordon Robertson told the court he could not imagine a situation where Pc D should have driven at the speed in the 30mph zone.



Car he was allegedly chasing was at 30 mph . covering 16 yard per second. He was closing in at 43 yard per second.. Does not make sense?


BBC etc wrote:
The patrol car's siren and lights had not been activated, the court heard.

The crash happened on Denton Road in the city's west end on 19 May last year.

The jury has been told that Pc was reacting to the Volvo's automatic number plate recognition system, which alerted him to a passing car - indicating it could potentially be linked to a crime.


:scratchchin: A lapsed insurance or MOT does not always Mr Big Criminal drive that car.. or if car sold - which once belong to a criminal.. does not mean the new owner tarred with same brush?

ANPR also notoriously inaccurate per track history of lurid tabloid headlines.. .

I know .. too :censored: well that they have to check such alarm bells out. But surely a true professional can do this without the "red mist"... :?


Quote:
Pc D accelerated to catch up with the Renault Megane, and struck Hayley when she stepped into the road.

The number plate data was later found to be out of date, the court heard.


My comment? I thought this ANPR was supposed to be "infallible"?? :banghead: .. But then we have had the tabloid's frenzied headlines of the crushed cars.. of the family made to walk up a slip road on a bitterly cold March day.. in the past. All as result of failure to keep the database updated. Police need this information to be accurate. Public need it to be accurate. If they cannot do this .. then how can we accept ID cards or any other gimmick??


How the :censored: are we supposed to trust ANPR when it all too often appear out of date? Police officers need this to be accurate to do their jobs properly/be applauded for their work instead of criticised negatively for the fault of backroom admin iincompetents. The public at large require this so that they are not wrongly accused. This inaccuracy hardly helps build trust. :banghead:

BBC etc wrote:
Schoolgirl Hayley Adamson was killed instantly

Retired police inspector Mr Robertson told prosecutor Andrew Dallas that driving the marked Northumbria Police car at 90mph posed a significant danger.

He said:"As far as driver skills go, if you propel a vehicle at a speed of that magnitude you reach a point where physics decides if you can stop it and not you.

"Sadly, on this occasion it appears that was so. There are dangers to driving fast and sometimes there can be justification for a good degree of risk.

"There can never be a justification for the ultimate risk - to drive to the point where you effectively become a passenger in a car you are supposed to be driving."



This ist one area for interesting discussion. Risk assessment. Where does control of situation begin und end?

Let's go DEEP here :wink:


BBC etc wrote:


He said that for the Northumbria Police traffic officer to have done so meant his training had failed.



Shades of Over Kellett raise ugly heads.


BBC etc wrote:
Mr Robertson added: "When an officer decides that they are going to use their lawful legal exemption from the speed limit it must be forefront in their minds what type of road they are on.

"You do not just automatically view every road as if it was a national speed limit road over the fells in the middle of nowhere. It never becomes irrelevant."


The trial continues.


:scratchchin: I think rural roads require a certain skill .. They are not all " tasty .. hoony.. rally delights"

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 21:22 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7987832.stm


The defence now on the stand.

BBC etc wrote:
Death crash Pc driving 'safely'

Pc John D denies causing death by dangerous driving
A police officer who knocked down and killed a schoolgirl at more than 90mph has told a court [he believed his driving was safe.



Yes.. we all do. But that court will have to decide that all the same. So far.. it just does not look good based on the prosecution's case.. I will hope for justice for Hayley und the policeman alike.




BBC etc wrote:
Pc John D denies causing the death by dangerous driving of Hayley Adamson, 16, in Newcastle's West End last May.

He told Newcastle Crown Court: "I think about Hayley every day. I think my driving was safe."

Pc D was in a patrol car without lights or a siren sounding while chasing a suspect car, the court heard.


Ach.. I know the excuses of not wishing to alert a suspect. I do understand it .. but I am looking at it from the point of view of public at large who need to know of such urgency .. so to keep safe.

BBC etc wrote:

The jury has been told that he was reacting to his car's automatic number plate recognition system, which alerted him to a passing Renault Megane - indicating it could potentially be linked to a crime.

He accelerated to catch it up and struck Miss Adamson when she stepped into the road, the hearing heard.

Pc D quoted as saying "I can't think how her family feel"

Giving evidence on Tuesday, Pc D said the road was clear and he did not consider his speed to be unsafe.



He must have seen the group crossing. :?

I recall posting on PH that a lot depend on these witnesses' statements to exonerate the officer. They said they thought Hayley was right behind them when they reach the other side of road. I think she stop to wave at boyfriend as young girls in first "kitten love" do. I was one such "romantic" as a "sweet innocent 16" :o .

I think he register the group crossing.. his eyes drawn to them.

Try to put myself in his skin now. Then into Hayley's skin. I am speculating based on my experience of folk's oddness.

He see a group cross road ahead. Perhaps a parked car obscure his vision. . He focus on what he see - as in a group crossing safely - but fails to see the girl who stop in road here. In his mind . she just step out ..start to run.. but she really running the WRONG WAY for her life. She run outwards when it should have been inwards .. in her fear.. panic .. I sound so callously cold now .. but folk freeze..make the fatal decision as result.

BBC etc wrote:
Miss Adamson, who was with friends, moved off the pavement into the Denton Road, then started to run across it.

Pc D said: "She ran across and I tried to steer the other way, I couldn't. I could not avoid the collision and stopped immediately.


She perhaps ran in panic.. the wrong way out to the road instead of back to pavement perhaps. I fear the court may not quite see this aspect. I SPECULATE here..thinking of a fairly immature 16 year old schoolgirl.


Quote:
"I tried to get on the radio, it was busy the first time, when I did start to talk, I couldn't really speak and I got out of the car."

He said a man ran up to him and started shouting. He said: "I tried to put my hands up and said 'we will sort it out'".

Asked by John E, defending, if he considered his driving dangerous, he replied: "No I do not."

He said he was left "devastated" by the teenagers death. "I can't think what her family feel."


Schoolgirl Hayley Adamson was killed instantly

Andrew D, cross-examining, told the defendant: "You have talked up the degree of lawlessness that this Megane represented in your mind in order to justify the way your drove."

"I don't agree with that," the officer replied.

He was then asked whether there was a trade-off between driving at higher speeds and the need to warn other road-users with lights or sirens.

"If it was necessary to put them on, I would have done. I don't think I made a mistake, I followed my training."

Mr D asked if he would drive in the same manner now.

He said: "I would have to be in a police vehicle and I don't think I could do that now."

The trial continues.





I feel equally for all parties in this case. I want fair justice for all involved. I know only too well how all will feel as human beings.

But removing from the emotions of this case . we have the questions of ANPR accuracy . red mist..

PLUS..

It also call into question the age old finger waggy -waggy of "I had to do 120 mph to catch you" when one does an illegal 90 mph here.:scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 22:16 
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For precedent this case is vital. Ok he was on official police business but the no siren part is vital. He broke the highway code (stop in distance.....) but did not have his warning lights on. The young girl could not of expected to have a car going that fast, by law she shouldn't of expected anything over 30mph. The "if the car was dong 30 it would of stopped here" ad comes to mind. I don't attach any blame to the girl, if she looked she would of seen a car (hard to know if its a cop car from a distance) with no warning that it was going fast, probably presumed she had more time than she did and then panicked upon realising what was going to happen. He must of known what he was doing was dangerous, they have a siren for a reason and to do something that dangerous is beyond stupidity, he had the reg of the car he was chasing, could of radioed ahead or called over to the house later. Imagine the reaction if it was a non-cop who done this, they would be rotting in gaol right now. From the evidence I've heard I believe he should lose his job and a very very lengthy driving ban (~10years). Gaol would serve no purpose, losing his career and having that on his conscience is enough.

If he doesn't get this punishment I would expect the Police Commissionaire to give it to him or else a resignation. Anything else is just 'one rule for them'. You can't enforce a rule if you don't follow it yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 07:02 
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"I followed my training" said the policeman. If, and it is a big if, that is true it is the most worrying accept of the tragedy. If police cars are authorised to travel at 120mph without sirens a residential area then we should be very afraid.

This hole business of high speed chases causes me a great deal of disquiet. My former partners mother was killed on a pedestrian crossing by a chasing police car. Whilst there was a full enquiry and the driver received a minor reprimand the overall impression was that the police considered that a few deaths were inevitable if they were to carry out their duties properly.

I can't accept that and it is difficult to resist the conclusion that some of these chases continue bedause the drivers are enjoying them rather than for any urgent operational reason. What, for example, is the point of chasing a "joy rider"? It is merely provoking an untrained driver to travel even faster.

The prime objective of the police service is to protect the public. Catching criminals, whilst it might assist this, is secondary to it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:00 
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I have always wondererd what proportion of the deaths attributed primarily to "excessive speed for conditions" are down to Police and other emergancy services on "Shouts"??

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 18:39 
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Guilty, then.

It's this type of reckless stupidity and mindless attacks by the Police (like on Mr Tomlinson) which alienate the public.

Don't the senior officers realise what is going on? Can't they control their officers?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 19:53 
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http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-ea ... -23344334/



I cannot paste in the article as for some reason - it will not let me do so???? :?


Anyway .. he allegedly worked as electrician on his "rest days" This article say he was working like this just 12 hours before he came on duty for this tragically fatal shift for 16 year old Hayley und himself. I said on PH when this story emerge that he will have felt just soul-lessly awful.. like in a limbo of guilt-riddden denial..

I am aware of how the averagely decent-minded human beings just feel.

This article seem to imply he was "tired". (It also imply in the first sentence that he was "greedy for cash" but that's "journo-talk". :roll: of course.. ) To be fair - put the other side of coin =

Tja :scratchchin:

I think cost of living mean we all have to do what we can to scrape up enough to exist at times.. und whilst I opined that police would have to "lump it und live with an almost war-time rationed smearing of jam as regards pay rise" - I am also being the first to recommend decent standard whenever we return to "fair affluence"


This article also tell us of the hazards the police can face too. Just six weeks before this incident.. this police officer tried to arrest an aggressive Zimbabwean refugee. This person claimed to be HIV positive. He bit this now convicted officer und drew blood - per this report which I still have not managed to paste in for some reason :? :?

I would think this would have put this officer under rather a lot of deeply felt personal stress/out of mind worries perhaps :? ..

. I will comment for the Mad Doc - but accept that my "expertise" on lurgies will not match his as we have different specialisms in our professional lives. I will suggest that this officer will still have been under a severe level of stress pending outcome of various tests as result of that vicious assault. Given the NHS system .. he would perhaps have been worrying. The fact he appeared tanned und calm in court - even I - dubbed as "anti-police baiter extraordinaire with hunting wild feline style" :wink: appear to be "journo-bloggering" :popcorn:

I think he knew the score as regards his Trafpol career regardless of verdict from what he said on stand. I think, based on this comment - to his credit, , that he come across as not as arrogantly/ "institutionalisedly " complacent in same way as the Over Kellet pair (who were breathtakingly so arrogant beyond belief) //but in sheer denial as it too awful to contemplate???

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:19 
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http://www.newsguardian.co.uk/latest-ne ... 5155224.jp


News guardian wrote:
Police officer guilty of death by dangerous driving



« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryADVERTISEMENTPublished Date:
08 April 2009
By ANTHONY McLEAN
A POLICEMAN who knocked down a teenage schoolgirl while travelling at three times the speed limit has been convicted of causing death by dangerous driving.
Pc John D, 41, now faces an inevitable prison sentence after a jury found him guilty of causing the death of 16-year-old Hayley Adamson.

Newcastle Crown Court heard how Pc Dougal reached speeds of up to 94mph in his high-powered Volvo patrol car before striking Hayley, who had stepped into his path in Denton Road, Newcastle, on May 19, last year.

Hayley, of Cedar Road, Fenham, died almost instantly in the collision.

Pc D was arrested but maintained his driving was safe, controlled, and in line with his police training.

But it took a jury at Newcastle Crown Court today less than three hours to find him guilty of the charge of causing Hayley's death by dangerous driving.

The offence carries a maximum prison sentence of 14 years.

Judge David Hodson, the Recorder of Newcastle, told Pc Dougal: "You must appreciate that the inevitable outcome of a conviction for an offence of this nature is an immediate sentence of custody.

"The question I shall have to determine is what should the length of that sentence be."

The court has been told that traffic officer Pc Dougal was on patrol on May 19 when a Renault Megane registered a hit on his car's automatic numberplate recognition system.

Pc D made a u-turn to follow but said he was 'surprised' when the Megane, driven by an innocent Czech man taking his family home from a late night shopping trip, was no longer in sight.



My worry ? The driver in question saw it all in rear mirror... :scratchchin:

Quote:
Pc D reached speeds up to 94mph to catch up, but before he could do so, he struck Hayley.

The driver of the Megane, who witnessed the collision in his rear view mirror, stayed at the scene to offer what help he could.

Pc D was remanded in custody and will be sentenced on May 1.


I think he was resigned to his fate really.. but followed the rubric of "Admit nowt" perhaps??


But this tragedy raise some real thorny issues.

We had the case of Mr F of Sale last Easter Saturday 2008.. He had tiny tots on board. He -wwith young family had to walk up the slip road in driving hail storm
because insurers FAILED to update the MID which the police rely on. My criticism was that he could have been more humanely compassionate to human beings in distress . even if suspected of a crime? :?

This officer reacted to an out of date alert on his in-car toy.

For the well being of all police officer along with beleaguered public .. we NEED this information to be ACCURATE 100% of time. Mistakes are just NOT ACCEPTABLE. They lead to distress .. inconvenience .. extreme anger .. und A NEEDLESS DEATH und TRAUMATIC HELL FOR A POLICEMAN in this case. :censored: :furious:

This issue ist not the same as Over Kellet which had arrogant complacency .. reinforced by a driving ban for the off duty "trainer" at its source of error.

This one hits the reaction to ANPR tools which seems to "assume guilt without being 100% sure of facts"

I do not know how to work out answer to this yet. We (public/police allike) are rather at the mercy of DVLA/insurers' "INcompetences" here.

I think police must have to accept the MID will not be not 100% accurate und use "bobby's intelligent nose or instincts/professional judgements" instead of relying purely on "technology"

This force's training not to blame as such. Rather the hype around scamerati/database led policing which will always be at odds with reality und common senses??> :? :? :shock:



OK ,.,. I read too much. I try to include all I read into one post. :wink:

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Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:33 
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I now paste up what police boss say here.

http://www.newsguardian.co.uk/latest-ne ... 5155474.jp


northernguardina wrote:
Police accept responsibilty for schoolgirl's death - Video


Video
Pc D's police car.
« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryADVERTISEMENTPublished Date:
08 April 2009
By NEWS REPORTER
A SENIOR officer has said Northumbria Police accepts blame for the death of a teenage schoolgirl in Newcastle who has killed instantly by one of its vehicles travelling at up to 94mph.
At Newcastle Crown Court on Wednesday Pc John D was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving following the incident in Denton Road on May 19, last year when Hayley Adamson was killed.

The 41-year-old now faces an inevitable prison sentence after a jury found him guilty of causing the death of the 16-year-old.

Following the court proceedings, Temporary Assistant Chief Constable Jim Campbell said: "Northumbria Police fully accepts responsibility for the death of Hayley Adamson and I would like to sincerely apologise to Hayley's family.

"We all share in their sadness at this terrible loss of a young life.

"The public place their trust in police officers to make judgements and act in a way that does not put them at risk and on this occasion we failed.

"Police officers undertake a difficult job that requires them to make decisions in often difficult circumstances.

"I acknowledge that the actions of Pc D who was driving the police car were not intentional, but they were a serious error of judgement which have now been properly dealt with by the court.

"I acknowledge that many lives have been affected by this tragedy.

"This was a completely independent enquiry carried out by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

"We will carefully consider all the issues raised during the trial so that they are suitably addressed to avoid something like this happening again.

"I would like to thank the local community in Scotswood for their continuing co-operation in assisting the police in the area.

"We have excellent relationships with the community and my neighbourhood teams will continue to support them."

The full article contains 310 words and appears in n/a newspaper.



Yes ./ We are all only as skilled as the last SAFE/OFFENCE FREE DRIVE so what the training/espertise/experience,


You judge the road.. decide what to do based on what you COAST-ed there.. We always come back to this.. und within COAST itself? We only scratch surfaces here with claws. We have to go much deeper if we are to improve safety out there. :shock: I try to set the scenes for debate perhaps??? :wink:

My thoughts? With Hayley und her family. With the Police officer und his family - with equal compassion for each partiy's very humanly felt torments. May God grant each of them peace of mind.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:48 
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malcolmw wrote:
Guilty, then.

It's this type of reckless stupidity and mindless attacks by the Police (like on Mr Tomlinson) which alienate the public.

Don't the senior officers realise what is going on? Can't they control their officers?



Indeed. I understand you perfectly. I agree too. :love:

The scene with Mr Tomlinson .. on news? I am over-emotional at moment. Hormones :shock: :banghead: verdammt ? New Mama-hood .. und I still stumbling around here.. in a mixed-up female whirring. :shock:

OK .. it shocked me to core when I see this on telly. Bullying intimidation. It also prevail on internet with these Stasi-minded.

I will pray that officer gets a P45 along with his jail sentence. I take great comfort in knowing Members of Public form the jury who judge. We "mere MOPS" are the majority with jury clouting power still. We can keep the Stasi thugs in check in this way so far. I know that magistrates can also help this still based on a relative's anecdote of training. :wink: But verifiable on a blog forum for these magistrate folk :wink:

:roll:


Now .. Mad Doc roll in home. I can relax und be a HAUSFRAU here :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 21:03 
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Both incidents are shameful, truely shameful.

Its now pretty clear to me that there are a significant number of our police force who believe that they are above the laws that govern us mere mortals.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 21:16 
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WildCat wrote:
OK .. it shocked me to core when I see this on telly. Bullying intimidation.

And lying. Don't forget lying.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 21:37 
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Wildcat wrote:
I note they try to make out the girl was drunk though. Am parent of teenagers as well as babies. I do know what they can get up to.. but all the same... she was wearing white clothing. He must have seen the other people crossing ahead. He did not need to drive at that speed.


It is worrying that more and more certainly in the safety press and national press, there is growing tendency to 'blame' the victims of police foul ups, we still have a large chunk of the public believing that Mr Menezes 'ran from the police', was 'wearing bulky clothing' and 'vaulted a ticket barrier' in a tube station.

To imply before any invetsigation was complete that the deceased might have been drunk is a very sad attempt at shifting blame.

Again more damage done to the public / police relationship I fear.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 07:47 
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Wildcat wrote:
This officer reacted to an out of date alert on his in-car toy.
For the well being of all police officer along with beleaguered public .. we NEED this information to be ACCURATE 100% of time. Mistakes are just NOT ACCEPTABLE. They lead to distress .. inconvenience .. extreme anger .. und A NEEDLESS DEATH und TRAUMATIC HELL FOR A POLICEMAN in this case


The very nature of motor insurance means that this information can never be 100% accurate. There is no legal requirement for a motor car to be insured. It is the driver who must be insured. So if my son borrows my car he is not insured but the car would not raise an alert. But someone with any-car insurance could legally drive a car which doesn't appear on the database.

This database was never intended to be an exhaustive record of insured drivers and its use as such by the police is an abuse.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:27 
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You are correct. It's the improper understanding of what the MIB data represents which is concerning.

The MIB data can confirm that a vehicle HAS insurance but not that it has none.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:41 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
"I followed my training" said the policeman. If, and it is a big if, that is true it is the most worrying accept of the tragedy. If police cars are authorised to travel at 120mph without sirens a residential area then we should be very afraid.


I agree with you actually. I do not support stupidity nor OTT blatting around. We are about SAFESPEED which mean ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY. :o

Another case of equal notoriety... it a thorny subject ... :popcorn:
I said that over the road on a PH thread about "Over Kellett" whereby the police were allegedly testing a Vascar at 104 mph on a dipsy bendy.

Police officer took off on the dip und bounced into an oncoming car. The driver died :( :( :(

I was shouted down by group of so-called "bib" (8+ posts daily mob -) - one of whom kept screaming that the deceased caused the accident. (He did not .. he was on the right side of the road - legal) und that police "got an exemption to drive at 104 mph". He also went off on one about "their ever so superior twaining" :roll:, that "they were just doing their job und should not be prosecuted at all"

I even got "cracking bit of road chucked at me when I try to explain the road type as fairly local to me .. und that he would like to drive it at that speed" .:roll:

Because I commented that police still have a duty of care to the public even when on a genuine shout und even more so when training on roads which they share with the whole cross section of decent to piddly-poor drivers out there .. I was then accused of being .. a " B-B_BRRRAKE trollster" for daring to suggest they could have tested the damned thing at a lower speed (which would still have been illegal for that road all the same :popcorn:

MOI? :shock: :shock: :shock: BRAKE .. OK .. so I am ex-member und probably the main bones we (as "Team Swiss") fight hard over ist the demise of the speed camera. Rest of BRAKE's ideas - we (as in "Team Swiss Family") do not actually disagree with on aggregate

... as well as "anti-bib".. "anti-establishment right rebel with claws" (as far as police officers on that board concerned :? :? :? :? ) und thereafter - I BAITED this guy relentlessly und he kept reporting it :shock: :shock: I will risk typing the most "taboo naughty words" in internetland as in "Awwwww Diddummies denn"
:wink: I am sure Claire will allow such

I know he lurks on this site :hehe:


Quote:
This whole business of high speed chases causes me a great deal of disquiet. My former partners mother was killed on a pedestrian crossing by a chasing police car. Whilst there was a full enquiry and the driver received a minor reprimand the overall impression was that the police considered that a few deaths were inevitable if they were to carry out their duties properly.


That was the attitude over Over Kellett. Jury called it in a separate note "institutionalised complacency". :( Lancs did take fairly decent und apporopriate action as regards internal discipline und are looking at training to be very fair to Lancs Police und :bow: to them for doing so.

I also agree with you on this one. Deaths should not be "inevitable when they do their training" . For them to even suggest such puts them in the same fool place as the TWOCCING joyrider with scant regard for the other road user. Made worse because they hide under their "police business excuses" - which also drves a huge wedge as far as public trust ist concerned.


Quote:
I can't accept that and it is difficult to resist the conclusion that some of these chases continue bedause the drivers are enjoying them rather than for any urgent operational reason. What, for example, is the point of chasing a "joy rider"? It is merely provoking an untrained driver to travel even faster.



That was obvious to me from the replies defending the Over Kellett officers on a PH thread. But according to BBC Traffic Cops - they deploy the aircraftss.. manage the pursuits .. CALL THEM OFF too more than often.


I think perhaps that a coroner ist right to call for better training - even though the biker failed to stop when instructed. But then perhaps .. red mist .. goading.. it all part of this sorry picture.


I think this ist issue to debate really.. not the aspect of who "guilty of what" perhaps?? :scratcchin:


Quote:

The prime objective of the police service is to protect the public. Catching criminals, whilst it might assist this, is secondary to it.


I agree with you on this.


I also agree with you on your insurance comment above as well. :bow:

Now .. twins have started to scream for me. I think the jolly job of nappy change awaits here. (I tend to look at it as "pit stop" .. it helps. :wink:)

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:58 
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malcolmw wrote:
The MIB data can confirm that a vehicle HAS insurance but not that it has none.


Exactly! There are good arguments for making motor insurance vehicle specific (and equally good counter-arguments) but, until we do, this MIB data shouldn't be used as a reason for impounding vehicles.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:05 
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Wildcat wrote:
. He also went off on one about "their ever so superior training"


A common Mantra amongst police drivers. But the stopping distance at 104mph is over a 150 meters. Better anticipation by a trained driver can reduce this somewhat but no amount of training can change the laws of physics. Nor does training teach drivers to see round bends and over dips in the road. No one, police man or otherwise can be trained to drive safely at a speed where the stopping distance is greater than his visibility.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 18:21 
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They originaly reported hayley had stepped into the road, Clearly shes already on the road, Hit at 73 jesus


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