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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 08:42 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... arket.html


Mail wrote:
Grandmother left fighting for her life after being hit by cyclist outside supermarket
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 2:04 AM on 24th September 2009
Add to My Stories A woman is fighting for her life after she was hit by a cyclist as she left a supermarket.

Joanna Hillman, 52, had to have part of her skull removed by surgeons to allow her brain to swell, during a life-saving six-hour operation.

The mother-of-two and grandmother-of-four was knocked down as she stepped out of an Asda store in Hatfield, Herts.
Horrific: Joanna Hillman had part of her skull removed in a life-saving operation after she was hit by a cyclist
She had popped out to the supermarket to pick up some dinner and a DVD when the accident happened on Tuesday September 15.

Mrs Hillman, who works at Hertfordshire University, was taken to the QE2 Hospital in nearby Welwyn Garden City with serious head injuries.

But she quickly deteriorated and was transferred to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead, North London, as medics battled to save her life.

He husband Barry, a manageer for the National Grid, was away working in Mansfield, Notts, when he was told about the accident.
He immediately drove more than 100 miles south to be with his wife of 34 years and has been at her hospital bedside since.
Devastated: Joanne's husband Barry is devastated and has been on a round-the-clock vigil at her hospital bed
He said: 'It was absolutely devastating, she is critically ill.

'Joanna's had a six-hour operation and they've taken some of her skull away so her brain can swell. She's so gentle - this just shouldn't happen to people like her.'

Their daughter Lorraine, 30, said: 'We're living minute-by-minute at the moment.

'It's just awful - we've been on a real rollercoaster of emotions.

'It's really hard to get your head around that a pushbike has done this.

'It looks like she's been hit by a car.

'We're hoping mum can pull through this - she's fighting for her life.'

A 17-year-old from Hatfield has been quizzed by police investigating the incident.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0SCCU10Ra




Let's not deceive ourselves. If a person is hit and knocked down - and hits their head on concrete paving - then they suffer potentially life threatening injuries.


I have to point out that the graphic photo was after emergency surgery - but this does not remove the seriousness of the injury caused by the cyclist outside the supermarket.

As more ride bicycles - there will be legislation as we will no doubt find out that reckless riding has equal consequences to reckless driving. I am not a doom-merchant but I think a realist - and it's fair comment to reason that our legal and highways systems will adapt accordingly to society's chosen transport - even if the bicycle replaces the car as the "vehicle of first choice"

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:20 
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As more ride bicycles - there will be legislation as we will no doubt find out that reckless riding has equal consequences to reckless driving.


There is no indication in the quoted article that the cyclist was riding recklessly. It is just as likely that he was riding carefully and that the women, whom we wish a good recovery, stepped out into the road unpredictably. That is not uncommon behaviour with pedestrians who often think that the road is clear because they can't hear any cars.. Twice I have been knocked of my bicycle by a pedestrian stepping into the road without warning. It is the same for a cyclist as for a driver - some collisions are unavoidable. In real life we call such events accidents.

Or are you supporting, as discussed on another thread, the idea that the heavier vehicle is always to blame :evil:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:56 
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But she was exiting Tesco's . :roll: It's reasonably foreseeable that folk will be walking or staggering around with bags of groceries. :roll: He should have been more aware. Duty of care would apply in a shopping area. My view is that whoever shows evidence of undue care and instigates any incident - then they would be liable regardless of how they chose to travel. It's worth noting that Switzerland does charge pedestrians with causing an accident if they were jay-walking and were proven to be negligent. I think they have a valid point in their legal system.


As for the noise - that's also going to be an issue with electric cars and the electric uni-cycle which has now appeared in Japan :yikes: apparently.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:15 
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You are showing your anti-cyclist bias by prejudging a case on which you do not have enough facts. No matter how much care you exercise, whether driving or cycling, there comes a point where sufficiently erratic behaviour by a pedestrian makes a collision inevitable. How often has it been argued on here thatb pedestrians have a duty of care to themselves?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 13:56 
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It would be interesting to know if the woman was on a pavement when the accident occurred.
And if cycling on a footpath is a criminal offence.
And what the penalties are [for instance] for killing someone whilst in the execution of an offence ?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 14:02 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You are showing your anti-cyclist bias by prejudging a case on which you do not have enough facts....

:roll:

I guess IG, and everyone else, demonstrates even more anti-driving bias by the numerous speculations of what occurred in vehicle collisions, right?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 14:55 
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Steve wrote:
I guess IG, and everyone else, demonstrates even more anti-driving bias by the numerous speculations of what occurred in vehicle collisions, right?


Don't be silly. Those speculations are invariably caveated by the statement "but we don't know all the facts". In this case IG, very unusually for him, has assumed that the cyclist was at fault without knowing all the facts.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 14:56 
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jomukuk wrote:
And what the penalties are [for instance] for killing someone whilst in the execution of an offence ?


If the offence is exceeding the speed limit in a motor vehicle and the victim is a cyclist the penality is often trivial.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 18:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
I guess IG, and everyone else, demonstrates even more anti-driving bias by the numerous speculations of what occurred in vehicle collisions, right?


Don't be silly. Those speculations are invariably caveated by the statement "but we don't know all the facts". In this case IG, very unusually for him, has assumed that the cyclist was at fault without knowing all the facts.


I don't think IG is assuming anything. He seems to be wondering about what actually happened, and maybe attempting to picture the scene, but no conclusion seems to be drawn; nor can it be, yet. Admittedly my first guess was that this was a cyclist riding along a pavement at excessive speed, but it may be nothing of the kind. FWIW, I know as a pedestrian that I've been narrowly missed sometimes by cyclists tearing along on a pavement, so that is a possible explanation.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 19:05 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Don't be silly. Those speculations are invariably caveated by the statement "but we don't know all the facts". In this case IG, very unusually for him, has assumed that the cyclist was at fault without knowing all the facts.

Assumption need not be a result of bias.
Claiming the lack of the caveat as definite indication of bias leaves barrel splinters in one's nails.

Is such bias really likely given the huge number of quotes and references from CW?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 19:50 
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http://opening-times.co.uk/services/asda-hatfield

If you do a googly map/satellite close up .. you get the layout of the store and car park. :popcorn:


Woman was leaving the supermarket per the report. Most entrances to the Asda/Tesco etc I visit have the standard lay-out of the blocked paving and trolley parks. outside the door.. various zebra crossings.. speed humps.. and a huge car park .. some with one way systems :popcorn:

They have car parks. I usually ride/drive/walk cautiously around these places as I think I am more than likely to be rammed by some fool with a shopping trolley.

I have to say that on balnace - reasonably foreseeable that some person will be walking out of the store or in the car park area where I would expect folk to be driving and riding SLOWLY :wink: because of the risk potential. I can picture the scene based on my wife dragging me around supermarkets under protest! Fact remains.. she had serious surgery after striking her head after being hit by a cyclist who really should have seen her and should have been aware as this was not a :listenup: ROAD but a SUPERMARKET AREA WITH CAR PARK. All these places have people walking around them and thus require the same duty of care as anywhere else.

Had she been hit by a motorbiker or a car driver .. I would be just as baffled and dismayed by the rather apparent lack of care as I am by this young cyclist.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 19:53 
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PS .. it's normally unusual for me to speculate .., but these Asda/Tesco/Lidl etc.. all have fairly uniform layouts. Supermarkets and their car parks are full of shoppers.. thus we need to be careful :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 22:59 
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In Gear wrote:
PS .. it's normally unusual for me to speculate .., but these Asda/Tesco/Lidl etc.. all have fairly uniform layouts.


Not exactly. The smaller Tesco's - the "Convenience Stores" - are often quite small shops often opening onto a narrow pavement with the only parking being on the road. I know that you are usually very forensic in your judgement which is why the tone of your OP shocked me so much.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 09:17 
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Not directly to do with the current debate, but I was at a seminar once where one of the speakers gave a statistic (that I've long forgotten I'm afraid!) which surprised me. It was to do with pedestrian protction in cars and they were (effectively) saying "what's the point? - Most serious head injuries to pedestrians that get run over are due to secondary impacts with the road / pavement than the primary impact with the car.

IG, I completely share your concerns about electric vehicles by the way. Having clocked-up a fair few miles developing them now, I wish I had a quid for every "old dear" that just stepped out in front of me when driving one! It's a very real problem round towns where they're not going fast enough for the tyre noise to be significant. Pushbikes (maybe a factor in this case?) have the same problem. It is a source of wry amusement to me that very often, the most vociferous complainers about vehicle "speed", "agressive driving", "intimidating", "bullying" - and all the similar words usually levelled at anyone behind the wheel of a car, are also the ones who find the noise that cars make excessive. My own experience - especially as a result of cycling our local twisty, narrow lanes towing a wheeled canvas "bag" containing my two sons, is that I most certainly do NOT want cars to get any quieter!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 09:49 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
In Gear wrote:
PS .. it's normally unusual for me to speculate .., but these Asda/Tesco/Lidl etc.. all have fairly uniform layouts.


Not exactly. The smaller Tesco's - the "Convenience Stores" - are often quite small shops often opening onto a narrow pavement with the only parking being on the road. I know that you are usually very forensic in your judgement which is why the tone of your OP shocked me so much.


But this was one of the main stores at Hatfield. :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:05 
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Mole wrote:
Not directly to do with the current debate, but I was at a seminar once where one of the speakers gave a statistic (that I've long forgotten I'm afraid!) which surprised me. It was to do with pedestrian protction in cars and they were (effectively) saying "what's the point? - Most serious head injuries to pedestrians that get run over are due to secondary impacts with the road / pavement than the primary impact with the car.

IG, I completely share your concerns about electric vehicles by the way. Having clocked-up a fair few miles developing them now, I wish I had a quid for every "old dear" that just stepped out in front of me when driving one! It's a very real problem round towns where they're not going fast enough for the tyre noise to be significant. Pushbikes (maybe a factor in this case?) have the same problem. It is a source of wry amusement to me that very often, the most vociferous complainers about vehicle "speed", "agressive driving", "intimidating", "bullying" - and all the similar words usually levelled at anyone behind the wheel of a car, are also the ones who find the noise that cars make excessive. My own experience - especially as a result of cycling our local twisty, narrow lanes towing a wheeled canvas "bag" containing my two sons, is that I most certainly do NOT want cars to get any quieter!



Indeed .. it's the collision with the pavement .. and this is part of the pro-helmet arguments :bunker:


I agree that electric cars need engine noise. I think they had developped a range from a "tapututah-tah" of a small hatch to a mighty throaty F1 roar! (I think I'd choose the last one :hehe:) :bunker:

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A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 18:17 
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In Gear wrote:
Woman was leaving the supermarket per the report.


And reporters have never been known to be economical with the truth. :roll:

"just stepping out of ASDA" translates as "somewhere between ASDA and home".

I have seen kids cycling dangerously around (and even inside) our local supermarket, but at the moment we really don't have the facts of this case. For all we know she stepped out in front of the cyclist on a cycle path or road, I had to avoid a woman this morning, looking at me in horror as she strolled down the bright red tarmac (with her ASDA carrier bags).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 19:33 
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Homer wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Woman was leaving the supermarket per the report.


And reporters have never been known to be economical with the truth. :roll:


You could well be right, it is the Mail after all and they like to pitch stories to generate outrage where possible. The use of 'Grandmother' to describe a 52 year old woman for instance is no doubt technically correct.

Does grandmother make you think of say

Cherie Lunghi at 57

Image

or Joan Hickson as Marple at 78

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 08:47 
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It doesn't matter anyway.
With liability being placed upon the more powerful vehicle the cyclist is automatically liable for the accident.
End of argument. Pay the woman, cyclist.
Oh !
No insurance ?
Bankrupt then !

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 19:45 
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Not got choir tonight as some of the guys have sore throats and one thinks he's got Swine flu.. :roll:

toltec wrote:
Homer in reply to my rermarking that this report (one of many) all said the woman was leaving the supermarket wrote:
Woman was leaving the supermarket per the report.


And reporters have never been known to be economical with the truth. :roll:



He was still on wheels and he caused serious injury to another person when all's said and done. How would you feel if this was your relative? This was not some half blind woman (and even more reason to be vigilant for a disabled highly vulnerable - and yet another reason to underpin - with force - that car parks are not race tracks for drivers/bikers/cyclists :banghead: . but a responsible adult who works at tbe local Uni . so hardly the "stupid chav type" :popcorn:

toltec wrote:
You could well be right, it is the Mail after all and they like to pitch stories to generate outrage where possible. The use of 'Grandmother' to describe a 52 year old woman for instance is no doubt technically correct.

Does grandmother make you think of say

Cherie Lunghi at 57

Image

or Joan Hickson as Marple at 78

Image



Ummm .. I am gonna be a Grumpapa soon ... Ern met me wife a few years ago when she was visting the Mad Cats. I am sure he can verify she certainly would be as much "glammy Granny as a yummy mummy" :lol: (Course I have to say this as she'd "thwack me one" me if I said otherwise :bunker: :hehe:

I also know of a 48 year old pal of my wife''s (fellow teacher) who became a yummy mummy to a fine baby boy just a month before her own 24 year old daughter (also in the noblest profession of teaching) gave birth to her grandson , Oh and the older woman's baby was conceived naturally. Like Wildy - (now aged 43 years (to be ungallant and seriously dicing with death . (only she's now a couple of thousand miles aways :lol:) ) - this lady thought "the [i]dreaded change and acceptance of "getting older"[i] at first - which then turned to shocked delight at "rejuvenation" ! :lol:

Fact remains though. Cyclist ran into a woman . causing her to fall and hit her head awkawrdly. The photo in the paper is the result of the surgery which was required after this incident.


I am sure some cyclists will declare all pedestrians and drivers need to wear helmets.. but not cyclists :popcorn: Might | remind the cyclists that they are pedestrians more often than cyclists in the same way as all drivers and bikers are. :popcorn:

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

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A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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