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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 20:21 
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What do you think of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-12115179

If the purpose is to slow down cars then why was he prosecuted for obstruction officers?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 20:37 
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malcolmw wrote:
What do you think of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-12115179

If the purpose is to slow down cars then why was he prosecuted for obstruction officers?


i am inclined to think this was probably more of a police speed trap
Quote:
being found guilty of wilfully obstructing a police officer in the course of her duties.
set up than a scamera van which would use civvys. I take it to read wilfull obstruction, indicates that warnings were issued taking it past the level of unnecessary obstruction.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 00:04 
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"When a file is provided to the CPS from the police, it is our duty to decide whether it presents a realistic prospect of conviction and whether a prosecution is in the public interest.


I wonder if they asked the public if they were interested? ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 01:08 
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malcolmw wrote:

IT STINKS!

He warned of a 'perceived hazard' better than any other road furniture could, and had more of a clue of what was going on in the real world, than a scamera ever could.

$imple$

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 02:06 
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I shall have to refrain from flashing other Peugeot 307 drivers - and neighbours, friends, relatives, drivers who don't dip their lights, and drivers approaching the brow of Bannerigg when there is standing traffic just around the bend in the bottom, just in case there is a speed trap close by! :loco: :whome:

Does it make a difference if the driver(s) you flash AREN'T speeding? Obstruction would seem to indicate that they might otherwise have secured a conviction of the driver you warned? :bluelight: :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 03:15 
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Daily Mail here
Daily Mail - Chris Brooke wrote:
Driver, 64, who flashed headlights to warn fellow motorists of speed trap hauled to court and fined for 'obstructing police'
By Chris Brooke - Last updated at 1:01 AM on 5th January 2011

Criminal record: Michael Thompson, seen here outside Grimsby Magistrates' Court, believed he was doing his 'civic duty' by alerting drivers on the opposite side of a dual carriageway
A driver has been convicted of a criminal offence for flashing his headlights at oncoming motorists to warn them of a police speed trap ahead.
Michael Thompson, 64, believed he was doing his ‘civic duty’ by alerting drivers on the opposite side of a dual carriageway.
When stopped by a police officer Thompson disagreed with the suggestion that he was ‘perverting the course of justice’ and was then allegedly told: ’I was going to let you off with a caution - but I’m not now.’
Thompson denied wilfully obstructing a policewoman in the execution of her duty on July 21 last year, but was convicted after a trial at Grimsby Magistrates' Court.

He ended up £440 out of pocket after being fined £175, ordered to pay £250 costs and a £15 victims’ surcharge.
Thompson of Grimsby, north-east Lincolnshire, told the court he was warning motorists for safety reasons.
He said he had been involved in an accident a year ago when two drivers in front of him braked sharply after seeing a speed trap and although he braked in time another motorist crashed into the back of his vehicle.
‘It is not an offence to warn people of a possible speed trap because of the danger involved with vehicles braking quite hard,’ he claimed.
‘It’s a civic duty to warn people. I flashed my lights. I had a very good reason to warn oncoming motorists, in my opinion. My first thought was:”This may cause an accident.”
'I tried to warn vehicles that there was a speed trap. Because I challenged the officer he would not let me off with a warning.’
Thompson was pulled up as he headed out of Grimsby on the A46 at 10am. He claimed the officer involved was a ‘Rambo character’ who was acting like ‘Judge Dredd’ in using the law unnecessarily.

The officer pictured here is using a speed gun on the A130 in Essex
Flash happy: Driver Michael Thompson, 64, thought it was his 'civic duty' to warn approaching drivers on the A46 in Grimsby that police traffic officers were ahead

The stretch of road outside of Grimsby where Thompson was pulled over. He denied wilfully obstructing a policewoman in the execution of her duty on July 21 last year, but was convicted after a trial and ended up £440 out of pocket
The trial took a morning of court time and three officers were involved in giving evidence for the case.

One solicitor at court criticised the decision to prosecute as a ‘ridiculous waste of taxpayers’ money’ and said the defendant, who represented himself, should be praised for his actions.

Defending the decision to prosecute, a spokeswoman for the Crown Prosecution Service said: 'Cost is not a consideration in our decision to prosecute.

Daily Mail - Chris Brooke - The AA wrote:
FROM NOT GETTING A SALUTE TO GPS WARNING SYSTEMS - A HISTORY OF AVOIDING SPEED TRAPS
The history of speed trap evasion dates back more than a century.
Helping motorists to avoid speeding fines was one of the main reasons for the Automobile Association being formed in 1905 - a year after speeding fines and endorsements were introduced into UK law.
Automobile Association aka AA

The AA's first patrolmen used bicycles to patrol the streets and warn motorists of police speed traps.

In 1910 a test case established that a patrolman signalling a driver to reduce speed in order to avoid a police speed trap was obstructing an officer.

The AA then developed a coded warning system that lasted until the 1960s. A patrolman (pictured) would salute the driver of a car displaying an AA badge, except in the presence of an approaching speed trap.

This warned the driver to reduce their speed in a way that could never be prosecuted by a court.

When radar detectors came into use in recent times they were thought to be banned under the 1949 Wireless and Telegraphy. But a High Court ruling in 1998 established that devices for detecting radar speed traps were lawful as they did not intercept a 'message'.

The Road Safety Act which became law in 2006 was intended to clarify the law. It made clear that GPS-based speed trap warning systems were legal as they warned drivers of published camera sites and posted speed limits.

According to the AA, regulations under the act that would enable the Government to ban other radar detecting devices have not so far been enforced, although few such devices are currently on the market.


'When a file is provided to the CPS from the police, it is our duty to decide whether it presents a realistic prospect of conviction and whether a prosecution is in the public interest.
'In accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors a prosecution was deemed appropriate.'
Prosecutor John Owston told Thompson he was not trying to avoid an accident occurring. He said: ’You were doing it to warn them of a speed trap because as a motorist you don’t want other motorists to be caught speeding. You wanted to make sure that people who were speeding slowed down.’

Mr Owston added: ’The natural reaction of most drivers in those circumstances would be to brake. Your first reaction would be that there is some sort of hazard ahead and I will approach it at a lower speed.
‘You are causing people to brake to avoid going through a speed trap at an excessive speed and all it does then is allow people, when they are past it , to pick up speed again and speed on.
‘It’s not the speed trap that causes the accident it’s the idiot behind the wheel who brakes heavily that causes the accident.’
Magistrates rejected Thompson’s defence.

Presiding magistrate Jean Ellerton told him: ’We found that your flashing of your headlights was an obstruction, we found that you knew this action would cause vehicles to slow down and cause other motorists to avoid the speed trap and avoid prosecution.’
Thompson, a married man who is now semi-retired, said he was ‘disgusted’ with the verdict and intended to appeal.
He said: ’It’s a sad day for justice because the law is being abused. I flashed a vehicle for a good reason in the interests of safety.’
The offence of obstructing a police officer carries a maximum sentence of one month’s imprisonment and/or a £1,000 fine.

Andrew Howard, the Automobile Association’s head of road safety, said: ’It’s an unusual case, but I have heard of this happening before. There are lots of people who are not aware of this law.’
Mr Howard said ‘a lot of people would be upset’ to be prosecuted for such an offence.

Solicitor Anton Balkitis, a specialist in motoring law, said most motorists who flash at other drivers to warn them of a speed trap ‘think they are doing people a favour’.
‘It does seem somewhat ironic that they are actually encouraging people, by flashing their lights, to drive in a safe manner and yet to be prosecuted for that seems somewhat at odds with the purposes of the legislation,’ he said.
‘But it is an offence of obstruction and people do get taken to court for it so perhaps people need to be made aware of it.’
By enforcing this 'Obstruction' they discourage people from actiing 'together' and so encourage individualism and less social interaction, which sees a far wider-reaching selfish behaviour and shut us off from potentially assisting our 'neighbour'.
To deliberately discourage a warning it tries to break the 'them and us' mentality. How very desperate!
Mostly when people face a potential crime any discouragement would be seen as a good thing.
Perhaps it is time they removed the criminal aspect to it and also the points earned from 'speeding' (over posted limit).
Most people seem to warn these days by a down pointed thumb.
Isn't it what they want to slow people ? To imply that other drivers will therefore speed off shows how little they believe that cameras work (to slow people). He cannot know what people may or may not do - that is a very wrong assumption and especially for a member of the Court ! It is here-say !

If they are so aware that motorists en mass, drive faster than the posted speed limit, and that cameras fail to alter that behaviour - doesn't this show this speed trap is therfor their only 'chance' to catch that behaviour at that moment in time?
The 'technical infringement' aspect of 'speeding does nothing to imporve a motorists ability to become a better, or more importantly, safer driver.
It also shows that disrespect of this virus system on the roads, is totally disbelieved by this motorists.

There needs to be a clear independence of the Courts to the bodies that encompass the speed camera supporters it needs to be separate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 09:09 
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I wonder if the outcome might have been different if he'd forked-out for professional representation? I'm no big fan of lawyers, but clearly they do the job they do for a reason.

Anyway, the rest of the story just highlights the hipocrisy of the system as it stands. They SAY they want people to slow down, they SAY that nothing would make them happier than the camera that made no money....


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 09:44 
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It was going to be discussed this morning on ‘Morning TV’ with Bill Turnbill and Sian Williams but I had to head off to work. :x Maybe there’s a podcast or something...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:19 
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I wonder if you can get done for 'obstructing police' if you did something to, say, prevent a murder or a robbery from taking place.

Taking that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, I expect we'll soon have a law which says that if you're travelling at the speed limit you can be done for 'attempted speeding' :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:06 
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Talk sport 11:15 ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 13:25 
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...or, indeed, that if you're driving below the speed limit and holding up other motorists who would otherwise be exceeding it, that's you'd be similarly obstructing the police and therefore also be guilty !

You really couldn't make this up could you?! :x


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 13:29 
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..or even at the limit - you would still be preventing everyone behind you from exceeding the limit, and therefore perverting the course of justice. Heads, they win, tails, we lose :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 16:00 
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That's odd this thread was merged with the other existing thread on this topic ! Odd - I will have to check ...be prepared to move ! :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 16:21 
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On this morning’s Breakfast News Programme, they interviewed Quentin Willson about this and he cited a similar previous case that had been taken to the High Court and was overturned. The judge ruled that as the motorist flashing his lights could not know that oncoming vehicles were exceeding the speed limit, it could not be proved that the police had been obstructed in carrying out their duty.

But as he said (QW), this has just wasted what should be valuable police time and achieved nothing towards safety.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 17:05 
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there are numerous conflicting reports in the media about this case as to whether it was a Scamera van or a police speed check area,

heres the definition
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A03uv8KptSRNn0IAsV9LBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByNGxmazk4BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2lyZAR2dGlkAw--/SIG=12s0jpr2o/EXP=1294337833/**http%3a//www.wikicrimeline.co.uk/index.php%3ftitle=Obstructing_a_constable

Quote:
The offence of obstructing a police officer is committed when a person:-

* wilfully obstructs
* a constable in the execution of his duty, or
* a person assisting a constable in the execution of the constable's duty.

A person obstructs a constable if he prevents him from carrying out his duties or makes it more difficult for him to do so. The obstruction must be 'wilful', meaning the accused must act (or refuse to act) deliberately, knowing and intending his act will obstruct the constable: (Lunt v DPP [1993] Crim.L.R.534). The motive for the act is irrelevant. Webster J said in Lewis v Cox [1985] QB 509, 517 in the context of obstructing a police constable in the execution of his duty:

" … a court is not obliged … to assume that a defendant has only one intention and to find what that intention was, or even to assume that, if he has two intentions, it must find the predominant intention. If, for instance, a person runs into the road and holds up the traffic in order to prevent an accident, he clearly has two intentions: one is to hold up the traffic, and the other (which is the motive of that intention) is to prevent an accident. But motive is irrelevant to intention in the criminal law …"

Many instances of obstruction relate to a physical and violent obstruction of an officer in, for example, a public order or arrest situation. This standard only deals with conduct which can amount to an obstruction in the context of an interference with public justice. Examples of the type of conduct which may constitute the offence of obstructing a police officer include:-

* Warning a landlord that the police are to investigate after hours drinking;
* warning that a police search of premises is to occur;
* giving a warning to other motorists of a police speed trap ahead;
* a motorist or 'shoplifter' who persists in giving a false name and address;
* a witness giving a false name and address;
* a partner who falsely claiming that he/she was driving at the time of the accident but relenting before the breathalyser procedure is frustrated;
* an occupier inhibiting the proper execution of a search warrant (if the warrant has been issued under the Misuse of Drugs Act, see also section 23 of that Act);
* refusing to admit constables into a house when there is a right of entry under section4(7) of the road Traffic Act 1988 (arrest for driving etc while unfit through drink or drugs)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 18:27 
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Quite right, this is absolutely not "perverting the course of justice" (what utter rot, again showing that the police seem to have little or no knowledge of the laws they are suposed to be enforcing)!

I also fail to see how it is obstructing an officer; it's not as if he went and stood in front of the speed gun.

What he was doing was warning people who may or may not have been breaking the law at the time of the warning, against breaking the law. If this is an offence then so is most of the Think! campaign, all the signs saying "Kill Your Speed", definitely all the speed camera warning signs, and 99% of the crap churned out by BRAKE. It has been ruled in the past that police officers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in the execution of their public duties, therefore it would seem illogical to convict for drawing attention to their presence.

I am certain that if this is appealed it will be overturned. I am sad to say that I am unsurprised that the magitrates convicted; of those I know, precious few are capable of critical thought, even fewer are inclined to apply it to a case presented by the prosecution, and I'm not sure if more than one or two are even aware of the concept of presumption of innocence.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 20:11 
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Further reporting from the New Statesman here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 21:26 
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RobinXe wrote:

What he was doing was warning people who may or may not have been breaking the law at the time of the warning, against breaking the law. If this is an offence then so is most of the Think! campaign, all the signs saying "Kill Your Speed", definitely all the speed camera warning signs, and 99% of the crap churned out by BRAKE. It has been ruled in the past that police officers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in the execution of their public duties, therefore it would seem illogical to convict for drawing attention to their presence.

I am certain that if this is appealed it will be overturned. I am sad to say that I am unsurprised that the magitrates convicted; of those I know, precious few are capable of critical thought, even fewer are inclined to apply it to a case presented by the prosecution, and I'm not sure if more than one or two are even aware of the concept of presumption of innocence.


Perhaps its old age,but isnt this a repeat of an incident some time ago where (I think) a truck driver was charged with same .Seem to remember that he was found not guilty as no proof could be found of his affecting the speed of traffic and hence quantity of offences .


Had a search ,but possibly not using correct terms .

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 23:56 
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it was glenndiing or something similar


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 00:09 
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toonbarmy wrote:
it was glenndiing or something similar



That as he .

viewtopic.php?t=7070


text of the appeal

In this case, the officers in question were plainly acting lawfully in the execution of their duty. Secondly, the court found that the signals were intended to warn of the presence ahead of a police speed trap. But the court was not satisfied that there was any obstruction of the police officers in that there was no evidence of any vehicles that could have been affected by his signals, either being driven in excess of the speed limit or likely to be so. The court therefore distinguished the case from the interpretation of the facts in Bastable advanced by Donaldson LJ in Green v Moore, namely that there were motorists who were likely to exceed the speed limit over the measured distance. There could be no obstruction of the officers in the exercise of their duty unless there were vehicles that were speeding or were likely to speed. In my judgment that analysis was correct.

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