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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 23:08 
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This is Somerset - here
This is Somerset wrote:
No choice . . . drivers caught speeding will get the points
Tuesday, March 15, 2011

​Around 1,000 drivers a week caught speeding will no longer have the option to avoid penalty points on their licence.

The Speed Choice driver education programme, covering the Avon and Somerset Police area, comes to an end on Friday and, as yet, no alternative has been put in place.
For some, removing the education programme option will mean a ban from driving.

Avon and Somerset Police are looking to join the National Driver Offender Retraining Scheme, which enables drivers to take part in a training course anywhere in Britain.
But no date has been set for the force to join the NDORS scheme and drivers caught speeding in the Avon and Somerset force area will automatically have three points added to their licences.

Avon and Somerset may look to an outside firm to run the courses on their behalf but any contract has yet to be put out to tender.
Speed Choice has been running driver education courses since April 2003. To date, nearly 250,000 motorists have attended the programme.
"The situation is out of our control to be honest," said Richard Fairhurst, Education Development Manager for Speed Choice.
"No education programme is being offered in Avon and Somerset and we have not been told what the alternative plan is.
"As far as we are aware there is no date to start."

A statement from Avon and Somerset Police said: "It is our preferred intention that we join the National Driver Offender Retraining Scheme (NDORS) which will enable people to take part in a course anywhere in the UK.
"It may be that a tender is put out for a service provider to run this on behalf of the force."

The force said it was hoping to extend the use of mobile speed cameras and they would support local authorities if they wish to keep static speed cameras operational once the Safety Camera Partnership is disbanded.
Mr Fairhurst said feedback from drivers on the programme revealed 97 per cent believed the course was good or very good.
We must delve deeper than asking people who are avoiding points whether a course is good or not plus what have they to compare it to anyway ? How many people ever take additional motoring training courses after the initial test ? The figure is small and every encouragement should be provided to increase those numbers. Making better motorists who take the best most responsible decisions as they travel will make the roads safer.
Pleased that those who may profit from such courses (DriveTec, NDORS etc) may no longer be a part of this whole sorry set up. The only advantage in the National scheme is that someone will not have to travel as far - possibly.
I am disappointed to see that the Avon & Somerset Police see more mobile speed cameras than hope for more Police Patrols.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:16 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
This is Somerset - here
This is Somerset wrote:
To date, nearly 250,000 motorists have attended the programme.


I wonder how many have changed the way they drive and what percentage have simply carried on driving as they were before?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 13:28 
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As SACs are only offered to the mildest of offenders then I should have thought that very few say "Oh my God! I am a suicidal criminal by going 8mph over the limit. I must repent." More likely they just think "I'll go along to avoid the points".

On this basis, out of the quarter million who attended courses, I would hazard that two or three changed their ways. :)

Wouldn't you send the gross offenders on a course rather than the 38mph crowd? Of course, but there are very few of them and the courses would not make money.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 14:46 
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malcolmw wrote:
As SACs are only offered to the mildest of offenders then I should have thought that very few say "Oh my God! I am a suicidal criminal by going 8mph over the limit. I must repent." More likely they just think "I'll go along to avoid the points".

On this basis, out of the quarter million who attended courses, I would hazard that two or three changed their ways. :)

Evidence? :)

malcolmw wrote:
Wouldn't you send the gross offenders on a course rather than the 38mph crowd? Of course, but there are very few of them and the courses would not make money.

They do if it is justified. It's a different course though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 15:14 
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If the drivers take the points it will cost the local police money, as all fine revenue goes direct to the Treasury. They'll be increasing the trigger points to reduce their costs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 19:48 
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DoktorMandrake wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
This is Somerset - here
This is Somerset wrote:
To date, nearly 250,000 motorists have attended the programme.


I wonder how many have changed the way they drive and what percentage have simply carried on driving as they were before?

Since no one is researching this and there is precious little observations prior to this either then much of the information has to come from 'after event' surveys and people are influence by the questions and then the order that the questions are placed along with their own time constraints and concerns of 'being honest' and who will have access to the data and so on ! So is that 'reliable' anyway ?
Better I think to go and observe traffic and behaviours and see what people are doing when they are 'free travelling'.
We know that people are still speeding which is of no surprise anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 23:45 
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I agree. A post-course survey could not be considered reliable. I know if I was filling it in and it wasn't anonymous, then I would appear to be the model-reformed speeder even if the reality was to the contrary. As for the free-travelling, well, yes, it's rare except in narrow, built up streets or when the traffic is dense to see people adhering rigidly to the speed limits. If only they would start fining people they'd make a fortune... oh... wait... someone's already thought of that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 01:06 
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When surveys are carried out they do try to account for an element of 'perfection' and 'provision of expected answers' but it bothers me that we might rely on that data and how can we be really sure that it is in fact a true reflection. Yes I know they try and select houses / people from all members of societies rich and colourful sectors but even so ....

Surely with so many online we ought to be able to sign in and give our opinions, and yes I then realise that in it'self is a selection process, but it must be so 'varied' now (with so many people with online access), that it ought to be able to start to count surely ?

What about the Governments public body that they obtain opinions from - I'd love to be on that - how much sway does that have on political decisions ? How are they selected ?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 14:57 
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Surely in a representational democracy, a balance of opinion would be encouraged? When we have groups such as Brake that are seen as influential (a truly chilling prospect judging by a read of their manifesto) on one side, surely government bodies, in order to reach a measured, considered official opinion that takes on board all sides of the debate and are interested in the truest and best course of action, should include someone from organisations like Safe Speed in discussions?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 18:03 
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I would suggest Avon and Somerset keep their heads below the parapet

http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/ ... s_1_898491

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Biker-cl ... story.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 19:10 
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timtjf wrote:
I would suggest Avon and Somerset keep their heads below the parapet

http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/ ... s_1_898491



Quote:
He vehemently denied the charge, despite being shown the speed on the gun by PC Terry Hatton – but it later transpired the gun had not been calibrated properly.

Mr Bird said: “My client denied travelling at that speed and after it was found the officer had not tested the gun to the manufacturer’s guidelines, the case was dropped.


so how does one calibrate a gun TIM

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 19:23 
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camera operator wrote:
timtjf wrote:
I would suggest Avon and Somerset keep their heads below the parapet

http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/ ... s_1_898491



Quote:
He vehemently denied the charge, despite being shown the speed on the gun by PC Terry Hatton – but it later transpired the gun had not been calibrated properly.

Mr Bird said: “My client denied travelling at that speed and after it was found the officer had not tested the gun to the manufacturer’s guidelines, the case was dropped.


so how does one calibrate a gun TIM

I don't know the details of the case, but I suspect the clue is within the article you quoted from - by not having:
Quote:
failed to carry out the correct procedure when using the device.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 19:46 
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Perhaps calibration is not an issue and correct examination of the evidence may be significant. It wouldn't be difficult to verify the speed of each vehicle. I have seen you do it and get it spot on. In fact TimTJF's client (150mph biker) was lucky to escape a custodial sentence on that one. The speed of every vehicle in that video from A&S could have been verified and still can be; was it and if not, why not?

One decision doesn't create the avalanche of repayments the reporter alludes to. Maybe the reporter should look up the law on that particular matter. That decision certainly doesn't establish the relative speeds and actual speeds of the vehicles so there is no reason to doubt the readings.

Post up the video analysis and we can all see if A&S need to keep their head down.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 20:09 
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GreenShed wrote:
Perhaps calibration is not an issue

Perhaps it was (I stress again - I do not know this). It has been in the past.

GreenShed wrote:
... and correct examination of the evidence may be significant. It wouldn't be difficult to verify the speed of each vehicle. I have seen you do it and get it spot on.

Indeed I have. I have a great level of competence in this field (beyond what you have seen for that analysis).

However, I also know that certain caveats must be satisfied for a reasonably accurate assessment of speed to be made (with insignificant uncertainties). These are not a given.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 23:25 
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Steve wrote:
...
Indeed I have. I have a great level of competence in this field (beyond what you have seen for that analysis).

However, I also know that certain caveats must be satisfied for a reasonably accurate assessment of speed to be made (with insignificant uncertainties). These are not a given.

Still, it would be more reasonable to make an attempt and estimate the errors rather than to simply 'give it a miss' eh?

Not only that but the relative speeds could also be calculated...and of course you know quite well the device is self calibrating and potential errors are quite obvious from the video.

So was it competently analysed or conveniently analysed IYO?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 00:33 
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Just out of interest, if the speed of the target vehicle is rapidly changing, what gets recorded? If, for example, the operator takes aim and at the same time, the driver sees him and stands on the brakes. Presumably the reading on the gun will be constantly changing during the measurement period? Do they have some sort of "peak hold" facility that takes the highest, or average, reading in a given time interval or something?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 00:40 
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Just wondering if our "expert" there could tell me whether the video recording equipment used has its frame rate certified, calibrated and checked, to what tolerances the length of road markings are constrained and verified, and whether the optics used are certified and checked free from anomalies such that they can reliably determine relative positioning at long distances?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 09:25 
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GreenShed wrote:
...and of course you know quite well the device is self calibrating

It seems you really don't know how an LTI works, don't you :lol:

GreenShed wrote:
So was it competently analysed or conveniently analysed IYO?

I don't know as this is the first I have heard of that case. As much as you might portray a level disingenuousness, I'm genuinely not in a position to comment.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 09:46 
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Mole wrote:
Just out of interest, if the speed of the target vehicle is rapidly changing, what gets recorded? If, for example, the operator takes aim and at the same time, the driver sees him and stands on the brakes. Presumably the reading on the gun will be constantly changing during the measurement period?

If your question is tweaked just a little, the answer is much more interesting that the question, in terms of both the background behind design decisions, and the doors it opens...
I will tell you later offline.

However, I’m still so very interested in the answer that greenshed gives. I think he also knows the answer but will be loathed to give it , especially for the UK models.

What say you greenshed?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 16:48 
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Personally, I don't expect to see any submarines surfacing for quite a while now. :sub:

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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