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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 06:10 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4617797.stm

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There were more than 2,000 casualties resulting from such collisions in the 12 months to April 2004 - a rise of more than 700 on the previous year.

Some 31 people were killed during the period - a rise of 11

The Home Office said it wanted "everything possible done" to minimise such collisions, but police must be able to pursue and apprehend offenders.

High-speed chases

The figures were revealed in a Parliamentary answer by Home Office minister Hazel Blears.

They will add to concerns that police too often put lives at risk when they respond to emergencies and embark on high-speed chases, says BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission - which investigates the most serious police crashes - said training police drivers and assessing the risks before taking part in pursuits were the key to reducing the number of casualties.

"We all accept that in emergencies police officers have to speed and go through red lights but they must not take unacceptable risks, either for themselves or the public," IPCC chairman Nick Hardwick said.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 09:07 
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The Home Office said it wanted "everything possible done" to minimise such collisions, but police must be able to pursue and apprehend offenders.

Could this be a knock-on from the reduction in "proper" TrafPols so local bobbies in "fast response" (Panda?) cars are getting involved in pusuit work for which they're not trained?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 09:33 
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Rough numbers indicate about 1% of road deaths result from police accidents (30ish out of 3000ish). I don't think this represents the same proportion as police to civilian traffic mileage.

If traffic police are being reduced then you might expect a reduction in accidents on the simple proportion model.

Might it be something to do with the cameras bringing law enforcement into disrepute and thus the public are becoming less willing to give way to police cars leading to more accidents?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 09:36 
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pogo wrote:
Could this be a knock-on from the reduction in "proper" TrafPols so local bobbies in "fast response" (Panda?) cars are getting involved in pusuit work for which they're not trained?

That and some previous posters have refered to issues about Hendon?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 09:59 
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malcolmw wrote:
If traffic police are being reduced then you might expect a reduction in accidents on the simple proportion model.
I don't think they're talking about just trafplod here. As has already been suggested I think it's more likely to mean the vanilla variety police crashing pandas etc as well as any crashes the trafplod have. Apparently they don't spend all their time at the nick waving pencils about :wink: (sorry BiBs, you know I'm only winding you up). And if the government are to be believed we've got more plod about than ever before - can't say I've noticed myself, but that's what they say. Assuming that's true then it's possible that police crashes haven't changed in real terms, but it obviously depends a lot on what exactly they're doing. What we really need to know is the police crash rate per mile. If we could get twenty or thirty years worth of that we might get a better idea if there really is a "Hendon factor" at work.

malcomw wrote:
Might it be something to do with the cameras bringing law enforcement into disrepute and thus the public are becoming less willing to give way to police cars leading to more accidents?

It'd be very sad if that's the case. That's made me think of something else though. Do talivans count as a police vehicle and how often do their drivers stack it?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:59 
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To analyse this properly, we need to understand how accidents vary between trafpols and vanilla police. If the increase is due to untrained drivers being used to cover for the reductions in trafpol, there is a reasonable case to say that camera policy is having an impact on the figures.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 13:09 
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oniznorb wrote:
To analyse this properly, we need to understand how accidents vary between trafpols and vanilla police. If the increase is due to untrained drivers being used to cover for the reductions in trafpol, there is a reasonable case to say that camera policy is having an impact on the figures.


I agree with this. It would also be an interesting exercise to check Ks (&KSIs) year on year for the last decade, but EXCLUDING all Ks and KSIs involving police vehicles to see if the impact of cameras is as we have thus far substantiated on here or if in fact the police accidents are adding to things disproportionately (also related to scameras of course but on a secondary basis)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 13:15 
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Yep. What we could do with are the accident rates for vanillaplods, trafplods and the police service as a whole for a decent period of time. Then we can see if there are any changes that we can possibly attribute to the camera policies and/or the Hendon factor. Might also be interesting to compare it with the other emergency services as well. Am I right in thinking that they are or were once trained by police drivers? If so any deterioration in police skills might be expected to show up there as well.Any of the BiBs here able to shed any light?

Where would we be able to get that info? Indivdual forces and local ambulance and fire services? Or would an FOI request to the Home Office be likely to get it? I've not done one before but I'm game if anyone can suggest wording etc.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 21:31 
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Whilst there may be slightly less police driver training (of course I don't really know myself) I think the real issue is standard road users not giving way to police cars in emergencies.

I love the way the BBC has nicely suggested that the rise in accidents is because of speed :roll: Link


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 21:55 
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madroaduser wrote:
Whilst there may be slightly less police driver training (of course I don't really know myself) I think the real issue is standard road users not giving way to police cars in emergencies.

I love the way the BBC has nicely suggested that the rise in accidents is because of speed :roll: Link


I quote from a friend/adversary on the Which forum:
Quote:
Training courses have been cut from three weeks to two, parts of it are no longer obligatory, a shortage of instructors exists and trainees carrying out a "mock pursuit" on public roads. A sorry tale, even worse is the pathetic attempt at putting a positive spin on it.

http://www.met.police.uk/job/job953/live_files/4.htm

Lamentable if true. Can any BiB clarify?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 23:49 
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Auntie Beeb wrote:
Do police need to slow down?

Not if their crashes come from their hats slipping over their eyes. :roll: Sheesh. Think I'll have to post a reply. :twisted:

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