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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:13 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 27,00.html

The Times wrote:
Speed device will act as cost 'carrot' to young drivers

By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent

YOUNG drivers are to be offered cheaper insurance if they agree to have a speed-monitoring device that records every occasion they break the limit installed in their cars.

The device, which uses a satellite tracking system combined with a digital map of speed limits, measures the vehicle’s speed every eight seconds and checks it against the local limit.

The information is transmitted to the insurer, which will issue warning letters if a driver persistently exceeds the limit. The scheme uses the “three strikes and out” principle, with cover withdrawn when a driver triggers a third warning letter.

Drivers who agree to install the device, which is the size of a video cassette, will receive a discount of 40 per cent on their insurance. Teenage drivers will save an average of £400 a year.

The Association of British Insurers has identified speeding as a major factor behind the higher death rate among young drivers. The number of deaths on Britain’s roads fell by 8 per cent last year but rose 12 per cent for 16-19 year-old drivers and passengers.

Teenage drivers are ten times more likely to be killed or injured while driving than motorists in their 40s. More than 2,000 male drivers aged 17-25 have joined such a speed-monitoring scheme in the Republic of Ireland.

Celtrak, the company which supplies the technology, said that drivers who had the device were 20 per cent less likely to make insurance claims than comparable drivers. The safety benefits have prompted magistrates in the Republic to order young drivers to join the scheme as a condition of keeping their licences.

Celtrak has now joined forces with an insurance company to offer the scheme in Britain. It plans to recruit 500 volunteers by the end of next month and to offer the device to any young driver aged 18-25 from early next year.

Oliver Heaney, business development manager for Cel-trak, said that some drivers were initially wary about having “big brother” on board, checking their speed. “But we make clear that this is not a stick to beat drivers with but a tool to help them be safer,” he said. “If you monitor something it behaves itself. It’s like when a teacher walks out of the classroom — the kids go mad.”

The scheme permits a certain level of speeding and penalises only those drivers who persistently exceed the limit.

Drivers receive a monthly account of their driving behaviour, including the proportion of time they have broken the limit and any serious breaches. Celtrak refused to reveal how much flexibility drivers were given to speed, saying that this was commercially sensitive.

Mr Heaney said that the first 11 seconds of any instance of speeding were ignored to allow for overtaking. “We recognise that people will still break the speed limit,” he said. “Because we look at the average speed over a month, even if you break the limit one day, that can be filtered out over the next few weeks.”

The device also emits a short single bleep when the vehicle accelerates past 30mph and a long single bleep above 70mph.

David Fitzgerald, 25, a paramedic from Portlaoise, in Co Laois, said his insurance premium more than halved when he joined the scheme. “It made me think much more carefully about my speed as well as making it possible for me to afford to run a car,” he said.

The scheme is offered by AXA in the Republic but will be introduced by another leading insurer in Britain. Mr Heaney said: “I can’t yet reveal which insurance company will offer it in Britain because they are worried about frightening their existing customers.”

Hmm, wonder how accurate that digital map of speed limits will be :?

It is interesting, though, that this scheme may well not penalise you for offences that would get you 3 points from a Gatso or Talivan.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:27 
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Oh dear. This is bad news.

Problem number one. The self selected take-up group will have generally superior attitudes, so there will be an illusion that the thing works.

Problem number two. It represents a considerable extension to the 'speed kills' myth.

Problem number three. By giving it to young drivers with the least developed hazard perception the chances of genuine benefit are much greater. (These people haven't yet developed a decent 'speed sense')

I fear this nonsense has considerable potential to gather pace and damage road safety.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:02 
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Morons. It is true that driving too fast is a major cause of accidents in young drivers. The problem is the speed limit has virtually nothing to do with it.

Most accidents round here where young people were driving too fast seem to happen on narrow country lanes, where two cars can only just pass safely. Speed limit: 60mph. What is actually too fast depends on the visibility, of course. On the better bits 60mph is occasionally safe, but a lot of the time 40 is too fast.

Just like speed cameras, the devices will cause warning letters to be sent at 65 mph on the straight, wide, safe bits but take no action at 55mph on the dangerous, twisting, narrow bits.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 14:33 
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Zamzara wrote:
Just like speed cameras, the devices will cause warning letters to be sent at 65 mph on the straight, wide, safe bits but take no action at 55mph on the dangerous, twisting, narrow bits.

Perhaps it isn't the devices that are at fault, though, but the speed limits that are appropriate in some locations but not others?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 14:42 
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stevei wrote:
Zamzara wrote:
Just like speed cameras, the devices will cause warning letters to be sent at 65 mph on the straight, wide, safe bits but take no action at 55mph on the dangerous, twisting, narrow bits.

Perhaps it isn't the devices that are at fault, though, but the speed limits that are appropriate in some locations but not others?

More to the point, in many locations the speed limits can be appropriate at some times but not at others. As we know, driving to the current conditions is far more important, and as far as I can see this hair brained idea will do square root of stuff all to encourage that. Quite the reverse, it seems designed to encourage driving to the lolipop numbers and no consideration seems to have been given to the fact that 40mph on a given road might be fine one day and too fast the very next morning.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 15:11 
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Gatsobait wrote:
More to the point, in many locations the speed limits can be appropriate at some times but not at others. As we know, driving to the current conditions is far more important

True, and this variance in appropriate speed with time is harder to cater for. Variance with location could be addressed with more frequent speed limit signs. Variance with conditions would require variable speed limits on those signs, still achievable to some extent, though.

E.g. I live on a road with a school on it. We have humps that limit speed, in my car at least, to around 10-15mph at all times, despite the speed limit being 30mph. I would personally prefer it if there were a variable speed limit, and automatic speed enforcement at all times, with perhaps a 20mph limit when children are around, and a 30mph limit at other times. This would still enable me to drive faster than I can at present. Indeed I believe my local council is going to do something like this, with all main roads that have schools on them having variable speed limit signs installed to reduce speeds limits to 20mph at appropriate times. All non-main roads are being moved to 20mph limits at all times.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 17:45 
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The Times wrote:
Drivers receive a monthly account of their driving behaviour, including the proportion of time they have broken the limit and any serious breaches. Celtrak refused to reveal how much flexibility drivers were given to speed, saying that this was commercially sensitive.


Ooohhh I can see that being good for bragging down the pub before driving home at the speed limit with 18 pints under the belt (in the fog for good measure).

No need to make several trips any more to prove to all your friends how fast your car goes. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 21:27 
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And having proved it to their mates with one fast lap of the M25:

"Dear Mr Insurer

Thank you for pointing out that my vehicle exceeded the speed limit dramatically on such and such a date. I have to assume one of my five children, all of whom have my permission to drive the car on their own insurance, must have been in command at the time as I was safely shacked up with my mistress at the time"

How will they react to this and the myriad of similar "standard" defences?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 22:11 
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Roger wrote:
And having proved it to their mates with one fast lap of the M25:

"Dear Mr Insurer

Thank you for pointing out that my vehicle exceeded the speed limit dramatically on such and such a date. I have to assume one of my five children, all of whom have my permission to drive the car on their own insurance, must have been in command at the time as I was safely shacked up with my mistress at the time"

How will they react to this and the myriad of similar "standard" defences?


I would expect it not to matter - the condition will almost certainly simply apply to the policy as a whole. If you choose to add irresponsible drivers to your policy, and their driving causes your cover to be withdrawn, that's your problem not theirs.

I have to say that I don't have a problem with them doing this. They have a financial interest in doing an unbiased analysis as to whether people with this device have fewer accidents, and it wouldn't work out for them financially if it didn't work. The danger comes from people applying invalid extrapolations, for reasons such as those given by Paul.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 00:13 
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As Peter has pointed out - there is a question of accuracy given that speed limits can and do change.

it is as discussed before - question of attititude. My eldest son complies with all speed limits - and the car we purchased does record average speeds and I do check it. :twisted:

His younger brother (just turned 16) is a bit wilder in character - takes after his mother :wink: I may well have to monitor him more closely as he is a bit more of a hustler in temperament.

Nub of problem is attitude and getting across that passing a test is only the start of developing expertise. Not sure a tracking gadget such as this one will have the required effect. What happens if the gadget records a constant drive at the 85th percentile which happens to be above the speed limit? And what happens if other more mature drivers use the car and break a speed limit? Needs a lot more thought before I'd even consider such a device in any vehicle driven by young drivers in my family. There are already devices which I can buy to track them - and I bought a car which records average speed in any case - and if he tampers and resets it - then I assume he has something to tell me! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 08:43 
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Mad Moggie wrote:
I bought a car which records average speed


Average speed doesn't tell you much. Mine currently says 19mph which includes a couple of good motorway runs. :cry:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 20:04 
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Homer wrote:
Mad Moggie wrote:
I bought a car which records average speed


Average speed doesn't tell you much. Mine currently says 19mph which includes a couple of good motorway runs. :cry:


True - but I know exactly which roads he drives on! :twisted: I can work it out on that basis :twisted: He uses my car :shock: :? :shock: :? :shock: on the m- m- motorways! My kids all know I am the :evil: :twisted: devil! They don't dare fib to either myself or Wildy :neko: - we find out anyway! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 21:22 
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stevei wrote:
I would expect it not to matter - the condition will almost certainly simply apply to the policy as a whole. If you choose to add irresponsible drivers to your policy, and their driving causes your cover to be withdrawn, that's your problem not theirs.


Except that this isn't quite what Roger was suggesting. Even if the person with the speed-sensitive insurance policy is the only named driver eligible to drive the car on that policy, it doesn't rule out other people driving the car on their own policies, does it? The car only knows how fast it's going, it doesn't know who's driving or which insurance policy is covering the car at the time of the overspeed...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 20:02 
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Twister wrote:
stevei wrote:
I would expect it not to matter - the condition will almost certainly simply apply to the policy as a whole. If you choose to add irresponsible drivers to your policy, and their driving causes your cover to be withdrawn, that's your problem not theirs.


Except that this isn't quite what Roger was suggesting. Even if the person with the speed-sensitive insurance policy is the only named driver eligible to drive the car on that policy, it doesn't rule out other people driving the car on their own policies, does it? The car only knows how fast it's going, it doesn't know who's driving or which insurance policy is covering the car at the time of the overspeed...


Presumably, there would have to be a clause in the agreement that says that no-one else but those named can drive the car (insured or not).

If this sort of scheme becomes commonplace, so will the "cheats". People will be clipping wires, soldering chips in, putting their boxes in the freezer, you name it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 13:04 
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antera309 wrote:
Presumably, there would have to be a clause in the agreement that says that no-one else but those named can drive the car (insured or not).


Mmm, that would seem to be the only way to get around this problem. But then there'd also have to be a clause that says, under certain circumstances, the car CAN be driven on someone elses insurance - e.g. a mechanic needing to test drive the car after doing some work on it. So presumably the car owner would then also be expected to keep records of exactly when the car was out of their hands, and appeal against any recorded overspeeds which occurred during these times... sounds like a lot of hassle and potential for causing confusion and loopholes for one side or the other to affect the validity of the insurance.


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 Post subject: GPS speed monitoring
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 20:16 
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What a wonderful idea - I don't think.

On Wednesday I was travcelling south on the M6 in Staffordshire, when my Smartnav informed me that I was off-route. After several route changes which lasted about a minute each I phoned Smartnav only to be told that according to my GPS I was in the wilds of Cheshire on unclassified roads. imagine what a speed limit monitor using the same technology would make of this.

When will those idiots learn? The technology is by no means mature enough or accurate enough for this use or indeed for roads pricing.

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