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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 15:24 
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Conservative MP Keith Simpson has been spared a six-month driving ban after he admitted his fourth speeding offence in three years.

City magistrates heard Simpson, MP for Mid Norfolk, was caught by a speed camera doing 37mph in a 30mph zone in Norwich on February 17.

They agreed that, because of his job, and the rural nature of his mid Norfolk constituency a six-month ban would mean exceptional hardship and instead disqualified him from driving for two months.

The 56-year-old shadow foreign affairs spokesman, whose responsibilities include terrorism, was also fined £350 and ordered to pay £35 costs.

Yesterday's hearing was told the MP, who lives in Reepham, was doing 37mph in a Landrover on the A140 Mile End Road.

He stood to lose his licence because of three previous speeding convictions in July 2002, April 2003 and January this year.

Chairman Tony Stapleton told Simpson: "The exceptional hardship is the nature of your job and the nature of the rural constituency."

The court also recognised his commitments to his frail and elderly parents, who live in Norwich and are in their mid 80s.

Simpson's solicitor, Nick Kingsley, told the court: "Before 2002 he had held a driving licence since 1966 with no convictions whatsoever."

Giving evidence the MP said last year he drove 26,000 miles, often doing 100 to 150 miles a day while travelling around his large, rural constituency.

He worked up to 80 hours a week, visiting areas and individual constituents in places where public transport was infrequent or non existent.

During the summer recess he had as many commitments as when Parliament was sitting. "I won't be having a break until the end of August," he said.

His first two offences were related to roadworks and the third to an occasion when he got lost in the centre of Leicester, where he had never driven before.

"Since February I have been paranoid about keeping to the speed limit," he said.

He declined to comment after the hearing.

A firearms officer who sped through Norfolk at 100mph on his way to visit his parents was spared a driving ban — so he can continue fighting terrorism.

Metropolitan police officer Jamie Smith, 30, was clocked at 100mph on the A11 at Snetterton, but escaped disqualification despite two previous speeding offences.

Magistrates heard he needs a car for his work, and that a ban would put a burden on already stretched police resources
.

Smith, of West Horndon, Essex, was visiting his parents in Hunstanton when he was caught doing 30mph over the limit in his two-year-old Seat on January 22.

In Thetford magistrates court yesterday, Smith admitted speeding. He had five points added to his licence and was fined £600 plus £35 costs.

Andrew Lyons, mitigating, said driving was essential for his duties as a firearms officer in London's counter-terrorism unit in London

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 15:56 
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Perhaps we should invite Mr Simpson to consider supporting us?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 17:58 
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So we've a doctor, a copper and a politician all facing bans, but the magistrates dealing with the doctor feel that there's no hardship for him or patients, the ones dealing with the MP feel that there is sufficient hardship to warrant a much reduced ban, and the ones dealing with the copper feel that there's enough hardship to let him off altogether. :loco: The courts really need to find some consistency.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 21:31 
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I can understand not banning people under some circumstances, but if it's only the mitigating factors that avoided it, surely the person should receive a punishment that causes them equal hardship to the average person being banned. E.g. if I were banned for 6 months, it would cost me in the region of 300 hours of my time in total. If someone escapes a ban, surely they should therefore lose the same 300 hours of their time doing community service, say.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 02:54 
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Gizmo wrote:
Quote:
Conservative MP Keith Simpson...


We really need to credit the source when we reproduce copyright material like this. Apart from anything else, it's a reasonable courtesy.

In this case I'm planning to refer to it and I need the source reference.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 05:02 
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Safe Speed issued the following PR at 04:12 this morning:

PR230: It's one rule for them. Again.

News: for immediate release

Three cases reported yesterday indicate damaging bias in court sentences in
speeding cases.

Dr Robert Moy a Consultant paediatrician lost his appeal against sentence in
Warwick Crown Court and now faces a 6 month driving ban for speeding.

Conservative MP Keith Simpson has been banned from driving for two months by
Norwich magistrates.

Metropolitan police officer Jamie Smith, was not disqualified by Thetford
magistrates despite driving at 100mph.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "News of these cases will further damage public
confidence in the Police. The problem is that many responsible motorists are
angry about unnecessary speeding fines and the Police are getting the blame.
The Police public relationship - one of the best in the world - has been
nurtured since 1829 when Robert Peel founded the modern Police force. Speed
cameras are undoing almost two centuries of care month by month by month."

"Damage to the Police public relationship is just one of a series of very
serious side effects of speed camera policy. For the latest side effect we're
hampering a senior doctor in the course of his work. This madness has to stop
and stop now. It's not as if speed cameras are making the roads safer -
science is gradually waking up to the problems and the DfT has called a halt
on approving new speed camera sites. It's nowhere near enough - but it is
clearly a start on the absolutely inevitable return to intelligent roads
Policing."

"Safe Speed is working extremely hard to force the authorities to examine the
overall effects of speed camera policy. It's nowhere near enough to claim that
marginal benefits at speed camera sites justify the programme when there are
negative side effects as far as the eye can see."

"It is absurd to suggest that these three responsible members of society were
causing danger by their actions. The speed limit is not a safety limit - it is
just an arbitrary legal limit. Assuming that the legal limit is a safety limit
is an extremely critical mistake made by our policy makers. I doubt very much
that any of these three deserved to be banned."

<ends>


Notes for editors:

BBC on Jamie Smith (Police Officer):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4135334.stm

EDP24 on Jamie Smith (Police Officer):
mega link

EDP24 on Keith Simpson MP:
mega link

IC Birmingham on Dr Robert Moy
mega link

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 07:00 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
In this case I'm planning to refer to it and I need the source reference.

Sorry, here it is..

Link to Norwich Evening News

(long link hidden by Moderator)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 08:38 
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I'm afraid I don't see a link between the police and the MP cases.

100mph in a 70 zone is a discretionary ban. In most cases a first offence or pleading loss of job is sufficient to get 5-6 points.

Totting up is an automatic ban unless there are exceptional reasons otherwise. The magistrates in the case of the MP and the Police officer where acting within the guidelines.

However, I have heard that it is common to get a 'stay of execution' for totting up, particularly when the first offence is close to expiring.

putting it in perspective none of the cases should have resulted in any loss of licence. 100mph in a 70 is perfectly safe in the right conditions. As is 37 in a 30.

The real story is that our obsession with speed enforcement is leading to good, hard working members of the public facing stress, hardship and having their lives wrecked through offences which are no more serious than parking on a double yellow line.

However, the doctor should definately have had a reduced ban. Making alternative arrangement might be possible for a few weeks, but not 6 months.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:21 
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To me, this illustrates perfectly the problems with relying on discretion. Different people will always have different views of what constitutes "common sense", leading inevitably to cases like this where people compare decisions made by different people and complain that it's unfair. The system has to either be:
- discretion leading to random and arbitrary decisions, or
- fixed and unwielding so you always know where you are
Neither approach will make everyone happy.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:43 
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stevei wrote:
To me, this illustrates perfectly the problems with relying on discretion. Different people will always have different views of what constitutes "common sense", leading inevitably to cases like this where people compare decisions made by different people and complain that it's unfair. The system has to either be:
- discretion leading to random and arbitrary decisions, or
- fixed and unwielding so you always know where you are
Neither approach will make everyone happy.


Yes, I tend to agree. Even though the argument will rage as to whether any of the three subject individuals deserved to be banned, there will always be a vague threshold at which some courts will ban, others will excuse. I'd still prefer to take my chances with discretion though.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:57 
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But surely the problem lies in that the 'Totting Up' system was brought in before the days of judge dread style enforcement. You'd have had to be pretty unlucky or daft to be caught 4 times in three years by a police patrol.

What should the revised total be? 36 points?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 13:27 
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civil engineer wrote:
But surely the problem lies in that the 'Totting Up' system was brought in before the days of judge dread style enforcement. You'd have had to be pretty unlucky or daft to be caught 4 times in three years by a police patrol.


Or even 3 times....(ahem) :oops:


Last edited by Rigpig on Wed Aug 10, 2005 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 13:39 
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It worked differently then though, a gentle slap on the wrist and you 'adjusted' your driving style for a few months!

I wonder if we can calculate how much more likely we are to get caught now.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 19:15 
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Quote:
Safety group condemns speeding MP's two-month ban

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/commons/story/0,9061,1546253,00.html

Quote:
Brake, the national road safety charity, today said it was important for public figures such as Mr Simpson to "set a good example".

A spokeswoman said: "The maximum penalty for speeding is a six-month driving ban. To allow a repeat offender to get away with just a two-month ban is appalling.

"Speeding is endemic on our roads and costs lives - a child hit at 35mph is more than twice as likely to be killed than if hit at 30mph - and it is particularly important that public figures set a good example within their local communities by obeying safe driving laws at all times."

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 21:45 
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Pre 1997 there where about 250-300,000 speeding prosecutions per year.
It is estimated that there are around 3M a year now. Your chances of being prosecuted are therfore 10 times greater.

therefore to compare like with like one should not be banned until they exceed 100 points on their licence.

kind of puts it into perspective ?

but don't worry we can still drink and drive, or drive dangerously or without care as the chance of being caught for these is significantly less


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 22:21 
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There we go then.

review the totting up system new maximum to be 120 points.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 23:35 
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civil engineer wrote:
There we go then.

review the totting up system new maximum to be 120 points.

Wouldn't that defeat the point, though? They want to increase enforcement to slow people down. If we kept increasing the points total to reflect the risk of being caught, speeding would be a constant risk activity, and nobody would need to slow down.

The reason more people are getting banned through totting up is because they are incorrectly assessing their risk of being caught when driving along faster than the speed limit. If they can't assess this risk accurately, what makes us think they can accurately assess how their accident risk varies with speed?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 23:53 
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Stevei

I don't agree with your point. What people are doing is what they have always done - correctly assessing the risks and driving at a safe speed for the conditions. They are not making the risk of being caught on a camera distract them from this prime task of safe driving.

The increased conviction rate is purely to do with the invention of a system for the mass policing of actual vehicle speed in relation to some arbitrary limit without taking into account the safety or otherwise of the situaton.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 00:22 
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malcolmw wrote:
Stevei

I don't agree with your point. What people are doing is what they have always done - correctly assessing the risks and driving at a safe speed for the conditions. They are not making the risk of being caught on a camera distract them from this prime task of safe driving.

If that is what people are doing, it's really not very sensible. The statistical risk of being caught speeding is roughly 1000 times greater than that of having a fatal accident. If we pull serious injuries into the equation, most serious injuries will cause someone less inconvenience than a lengthy driving ban, e.g. a fracture that you fully recover from might stop you driving for a couple of months and cause you less inconvenience than a 6 month ban.

So, if people are going to speed and want to minimise the risk to their welfare, IMO it makes sense to make speed enforcement the number one hazard in your mind, as it poses the greatest risk to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 01:58 
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Hmmmm.....

3 Million a year... Now given points hang around for 3 years

Thats 9 Million sets of points to distribute. It is highly unlikely that they will be distributed evenly. So say it takes 3 sets on average to get banned 1 in 10 get 2 lots and 1 in 10 of those get 3 lots. (1%)

Thats 90,000 bans falling due every year.
I wonder how many of those will drive and have no insurance?


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