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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 19:31 
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New rules

So firefighters now have to instantly calculate their maximum speed relative to the posted limit. How daft is this going to get.

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10:30 - 15 November 2005

Firefighters driving to emergencies face being prosecuted if they break a new speeding code.

Leicestershire Fire and Rescue Service will not defend speeding tickets if fire engines are clocked at more than 50 per cent above the speed limit.

Drivers could also be prosecuted if potential speeding offences are not properly logged.

At present, fire service personnel can drive at any speed to an emergency and will be defended if they are driving responsibly.

The new policy is being brought in on December 1 following a spate of accidents involving fire engines in the past year, and consultation by the Health and Safety Executive with fire services.

The new policy says that no fire engine should travel at more than 50 per cent above the given limit, to a maximum of 75mph.

Drivers of service cars will be able to travel at up to 90 mph in emergencies.

The policy urges crews to "drive to arrive".

However, some drivers are concerned they might be prosecuted simply for doing their job in trying to get to an emergency as quickly as possible.

Deputy chief fire officer Ian Scarrott said: "We have not had a formal policy before.

"In theory drivers could travel at any speed under the terms of the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act, but we have to manage risk and the policy is being introduced to protect our employees and the members of the public."

He said the service had suffered a number of accidents in the past year, and that similar policies had been introduced in other areas.

Mr Scarrott said the service would consider each incident on its merits, but added: "If the rules are broken then the drivers will be liable."

The new policy states: "Exemptions (from prosecution) will only be given if the vehicle is responding to an emergency as a primary response vehicle, and that all the conditions within this policy have been adhered to and can be proved by the incident log where necessary."

One fire engine driver, who did not wish to be named, said: "The threat of prosecution for doing our job is something which has angered a lot of my colleagues.

"Under the new rules, we could be driving through a country village at 3am to a house fire and if we are clocked on a speed camera at 48 mph then we will face a fine."

The new orders will be discussed tomorrow with representatives of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU).

Leicestershire FBU secretary Neil Mayne said: "There are some issues which we shall be raising at tomorrow's meeting."


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 20:23 
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How absolutely nonsensical.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 20:27 
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Surely the law, at present, does not allow this? It would require primary legislation.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 20:33 
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Zamzara wrote:
Surely the law, at present, does not allow this? It would require primary legislation.


That's how I see it too. Speed limits don't apply to emergency services vehicles if observance of the speed limit would hinder the use to which the vehicle is being put at the time.

Apart from that the advice is absolutely barking. If you're trying to drive as fast as safely possible you do not have time to waste on the speedo.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 21:35 
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As a driver of a HGV, I have some knowledge of what Fire Service Drivers have to put up with, I have also driven Ambulances on blue light jobs, and these were large vehicles not the dinky toys they use nowadays, Bedford TJ, the one with the long bonnet.
These Drivers are trained to a very high degree, I agree with the drive to arrive idea, but not with putting more pressure on the driver to do speed calculations as well, they need all their concentration on the road.
I would rather have a fire crew on the scene saving my life, quickly, rather than slowly.
Fire Engine drivers do a remarkable job, 14ton vehicles round street almost as fast as the boy racers can, they have my respect.
30 secs delay could mean someones died, this was their argument about speed bumps as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 02:07 
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I can't believe that firefighters' time is actually wasted defending camera NIPs. I always thought that photos of emergency vehicles showing their blue lights were automatically binned. I am shocked.

Not content with destroying public-police relations, lowering driving standards and making the roads more dangerous, the SCPs now want emergency response times to be compromised. Those evil b*stards truly know no bounds in their ravenous hunger for cash.

I hope the firefighters do the right thing - ignore these pathetic new "rules" and allow them to be dealt with by a Crown Court precedent.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 17:49 
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In Luton there are some high-rise flats known as Marsh Farm. A few years ago there was a fire in the flats with 'persons reported' (that's people possibly trapped inside. A Fire Service Pump (that's a fire engine)was despatched together with its water tender and the tender clipped a van, not seriously, on its way and, of course, didn't stop. The driver of the tender was later cautioned with an intention to prosecute by the Luton Old Bill for 'failing to stop' and 'driving without due care....'. This caused such uproar and a decision by all the firefighters in Luton to embark on a policy of non-cooperation with the Police that a senior police officer had to visit the fire station and apologise, the entire matter being dropped.


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 Post subject: fire engines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 20:53 
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Let's see how the brains behind this respond when someone burns to death because the engine followed the new guidelines, and it goes to Coroner's Court.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 22:29 
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So at 4pm on a nearly deserted motorway an ambulance and fire engine crawl at 60 mph through the roadwork’s section to get to serious incident.......priceless.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 14:51 
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This is the follty of pursuing drivers and automated justice. They've dug us into a hole and are digging deeper to get us out!!!

Look at the situation.......motorists getting caught up and resenting cases like the 159mph copper. Outrage one rule for us etc etc instead of realising that the fault lies with the original policy they now tag on stupid rules for the emergency services.

so now not only are we pursecuted for technical offences but we could be burned in our beds as a result of the same rule!

come in number ten....your time is up!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 15:40 
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I wonder how many accidents, nationally, are caused by fire engines exceeding the speed limit my more then 50%? Surely the number is probably very low, if not zero. I would hazard a guess that most accidents are caused at junctions where other drivers have failed to see the pump, or have pulled out or turned in front of it. So this new instruction will do nothing other then cause delays to to those in desperate need of assistance. I wonder how whoever thought this barmy idea would feel if a fire engine was trundling along at 45mph when their children were screaming for help?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 17:11 
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With the increase roll-out of 20mph speed limits that means fire engines would be limited to 30mph......crazy

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 17:44 
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Theoretical, so bear with me..

If it becomes law to restrict emergency vehicle speeds significantly:

If I have a heart attack or are stabbed one day, I have say, 20 mins to recieve lifesaving intervention and I'll be OK. But if it happens after legislation....I'm left to die. I wonder if legal action could be taken by my grieving (hopefully!) widow as it WAS in their power to be there before governmental intervention?

I'm kinda basing this on the legal action taken against my local council as few years back. Long story short, and so ironic.

Incorrect street sign was installed following vandelism, resident complained to council several times, for months. No action. Same resident has heart attack. Ambulance drives around for 30mins trying to find house, eventually flagged down, resident dies. Bureaucracy effictively allowed this man to die.

I think the legal action failed in this instance.....


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 18:10 
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That's an interesting one hobbes, but as always it's one rule for us, and one rule for them.

I can't understand why they would seek to restrict the speeds on the dubious science that suggests someone may die in a crash with a vehicle exceeding a posted(+50%) speed limit when there is someone who WILL die if urgent attention is not given. That likelyhood that somone may die in a crash must be so insignificantly small when we are talking about highly skilled emergency response drivers that surely the person whose life is definately at risk should be the main priority.


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 Post subject: emergency services
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 20:43 
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Remember the Ambulance guy delivering human organs a while back in his fast-response car? Fully liveried vehicle, trained experienced driver on twos and blues, doing 100+ on an empty motorway, gets flashed by GATSOs in several counties, one of which decides to prosecute !!! His control room confirm he was on official "emergency" business, they still prosecute !!! Eventually kicked out of court, spokesperson for the pratnership says "I'm sure the person waiting for the organs would be happy to wait a while longer, if it meant they would arrive safely". Jeez !!
So, when you're hanging out the first floor window as the flames lick up around you, or when you're desperately trying to stop Uncle Ernie from turning blue, remember- it's making the roads a safer place.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 15:50 
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any emergency vehicle with blues and twos on responding to an immediate, is filmed but the trigger not pulled , from experience you need a pretty long open road for a fully laden fire engine to get up to top speed

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 Post subject: emergency vehicles
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 16:35 
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If you can clearly see it's an emergency services vehicle on twos and blues, why film it? And in the case of GATSOs it's automatic- so which muppet took the conscious decision to prosecute despite the overwhelming evidence proving it was a real emergency? And, despite your anticipated protestations to the contrary, I know none of you are anywhere near as enthusiastic about nicking a vehicle if it's a police one with no sound or sight of twos or blues.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 17:58 
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i film any emergency vehicle for the fact to show that i do not discriminate between drivers of emergency services to members of the public,

now if i saw / heard sirens and i panned the camera away the someone might say i was showing favoritism to the emergency services (who by the way are trained and authorised to exceed the speed limit / run red lights if it is safe to do so)

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 Post subject: emergency services
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 18:42 
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I'm afraid that your decision to film everyone doesn't come across as "non-discriminatory" to me- how many members of the public would expect you to film an emergency vehicle on a call? Just like prosecuting the driver who inches across a red light to let said emergency vehicle through, even though the junction is blatantly clear. It's dogma at it's worse, with common sense thrown out the window (which seems to fit in nicely with the whole concept of cameras and pratnerships).
It also smacks a little bit of "everyone is equal", Orwellian-style.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 20:15 
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no doubt you will dis agree with many of my viewpoints

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