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Seems surprisingly rational.

But how do you get 6 points out of three tyres? I know most think it's three points per tyre - but I suspect that's a lie put about by the tyre industry.

I think it's three points for any number of defective tyres. Either way this is a bit weird.

Now that 'black ice' has been agreed to be the primary cause of the crash in court, where does that leave the Police officers who allegedly left the scene an hour earlier?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Perhaps the range of penalty for a tyre is 3-6 points, and in this case the maximum were imposed for each, but running concurrently (as they generally do)

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
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Theres some spin going on here!

If this the defect was unrelated to the deaths how does the media know all about it? there must be thousands of minor motoring offences heard every week!

so he could have been fined £7500

Seams pittance to me... was he a magistrait or other big-wig?
a hampshire truck driver got 3 points and £300 fine + costs £235 for 7mph over the 40!

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Anton, not sure where your quote is from, as I understand it he was fined for 3 defective tyres, nothing else, and it was agreed that as the accident occurred due to black ice and nothing to do with his tyres (in fact why is the accident even being discussed if it had nothing to do with this?) then fining him for each one and giving points seems a reasonable punishment to me.

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In the clear as always! No chance of any Newspaper or News show picking it up is there?

The officers who attended the earilier accident showed a blatant disregard for the safety of other road users and were probably off manning a speed trap within a hour or so! Cynical, no!!!!

1 defective tyre is careless
2 is stupid and
3 is scandleous

are you honestly telling me that 4 shiney new tyres are just as good as 4 well rounded tyres?

It appears he has the minimum fine possible

A good summery of the fines here

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I appreciate what the fines are for those offences and yes I agree with your summery, but as far as I can see he was only found to have 3 defective tyres, not defective brakes or steering that's what I'm missing.

Cheers

Paul

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It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

4 brand new tyres may have less grip on the road in black ice than 4 tyres with illegally low tread, as a greater amount of surface area of tyre will be in contact with the road, at any one time, with the latter.

Just to clarify, it IS possible to lose your licence for 4 bald tyres. As stated in the report all the tread does is disperse water and if there wasn't any water there....

I'm actually pretty impressed that the authorities have been rational and sensible about this, as have the BBC it seems.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Oh yes. And if the tyres are REALLY new then much more so due to surface contamination with mould release agent.

There's also a significant issue with 'tread block squirm' With deeper tread the opportunity for the tread blocks to flex is much greater and contributes to loss of grip. (Is there a proper term for 'tread block squirm'?)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

1. He was charged with three defective tyres.

2. He pleaded guilty to these defective tyres - which is reflected by the Statute and Bench Book guide lines per Andreas and his chums who are lawyers. As we know from another much nastier crime involving a child and a perceived low sentence... justice does not seem to be served in proportion to the wrong done. Not my words. I am quoting the Swiss guy! But I think he has a point. Law really is an ass on many counts - or so it seems to those not involved in these legal mattters of black and white facts "material to the case" only.

3. The tyre tread displaces water to give a better grip. Had it been raining and he had killed these cyclists - then he would have really faced a very nasty charge and perhaps ended up in jail. However, this was black ice and even with brand new tyres.. such is the nature of black ice. The tread limit on three tyres was below 1.6mm - but the illegal tread did not cause the accident - and nor did his speed. He was at a legal speed on that road. Not necessarily a safe one perhaps... and this does show up why we are right to hammer safe speed and COAST awareness and POWER checks before set out.

Kriss, Mike, Andreas and his chums all posted this up on a cycling forum. I guess Team Swiss vindicated and proven right then Sorry if this causes upset to lurkers. I would rather bridges built but I think I make a fair observation. There is merit in preaching COAST and POWER and we are hoping people will take the acronyms to heart and really really put into action for all our sakes.

4. This man has to live with these deaths. The riders admitted the road was treacherous under foot. He was traumatised. Perhaps the magistrates realised that this man is tortured by this event and to punish further would be inhuman.

5. As you know this family suffered the loss of one Swiss guy called Ferdl. The guy had a young family and was devoted to them. He was a lovely man and had such talent. He died when a lorry with defective brakes, steering .. tyres hit him at 20 mph. The driver tried to kill himself. He has never driven since. Tormented by the event. He was not jailed. He had a similar fine and points to licence at the time. We forgave him. We had to. To get a closure without hate. We also supported the widow of the man who nearly killed my wife in an incident which caused me a lot of absolute pain too.

But whilst we say the incident which killed Ferdl could have been avoided had the operator serviced the lorry, the one which nearly took my own wife was a pure bad luck incident which nothing could have prevented. This was another such case in reality. Arguably prevented if the authorities had re-gritted or closed this road to all traffic including cyclists.

Hence - the person is also suffering just as much as the cyclists' loved ones. No amount of hand wringing and blaming the driver is going to change the fact that this was one of those appallingly awful accidents - for which those in charge of gritting and failing to close off a road in a black ice situation should be held to account.

For Roadpeace and Brake to come out with highly emotional and blatantly over -emotional, illogical and incorrect statements does them no real credit whatoever. I have to say this and I try to explain below:.

I recall that day. Up here it was dry.. cold but dry. Prone to micro climates here. We know them well enough. It was a fair day. Frosty in the ealry hours but it thawed by mid morning. It was black ice. You could not see it. The cyclists could not see it. To the naked eye - weather appeared "dry and normal". They happened on the bend just as the driver hit this bend and spun. A second or so earlier or even later would have meant a difference between appalling tragedy and a severe scare to the driver. To him.. normal road. Feeling normal as he would be "used to tread feel" of those tyres as well. He would have felt the pull in the wet and one wonders why he never checked in November when I recall it was wet I do check my tyre pressure each week and have the garage check each fortnight. But then - I'm a "petrolhead." True petroheads then are very safe... It;'s them other numpties who drive at 40 mph everywhere and never check anything... I cannot put into words.. so am using my smiley pals ...


As for the comment that he made the "irresponsible decision to drive in atrocious conditions"...

Well.... speaking as a father.. I would have severe doubts about a decision to take youngsters on a bike ride in such "atrocious conditions". This was a ride involving the public.

Give example .. sorry they are anecdotes of some of my holidays

1. Was holidaying on Italian Riviera. Place called Alassio. Lovely town and good base for excursions. They offered a boat trip - ssialing and swimming with dolphins and whales. Lovely sunny day and calm sea to the eye. Italians called off the trip "because there was unsettled seas in the bay which would have made this unsafe on that day"

We did do this trip on another day. It was memorable

2. Holiday in the Alps. Walk called off because of weather front.

3. Off piste ski jaunt called off because of adverse weather

4. Swiss and Dolomites Winter bike rides called off because of a black ice alert

Thus - if the driver should not have chosen to drive in such weather - then perhaps the cycling club should also have elected not to ride out in such conditions.

This comment is not intended to say the cyclists were in the wrong but that one cannot argue they were in the right if one is saying the driver should not have been on the road in those conditions. There is just no logic in that comment.

Truth is.. a tragic accident caused by black ice - and driver and cycling club having the sheer tragic and appalling bad luck to be at that point at that one split second when all wnet pear shaped.

The only thing to do instead of hand wringing, foaming at the mouth and blaming the driver .. is to calm down. Hope.. pray the bereaved come to terms with their losses and without that consuming, bitter sould destroying anger and that the driver also comes to terms with that guilt which is equally soul destroying.

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Because he was the man who collided with the Rhyl group and 4 died from the impact.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

But let's look at the irrational and highly emotive headliness in the press



OK - so the sub-heading is the "Campainers Fury over this.








Had he been charged with careless dor even dangerous driving - then yes perhaps. But he was only charged with the defective tyres at this stage of the enquiry because the investigation is still on-going. Outbursts such as this one could prjudice the case should the investigation uncover something which suggests he was careless or dangerous.

In short - he could not have been punished, jailed or disqualified because he was charged only with the defective tyres at this stage. The defects did not contribute to the incident.

This case is far from over - gritting procedures, failure to close the road or place a warning that the surface was prone to black ice....all still under investigation and maybe even the authorities and even police could be held to account over their failings here.

Better then if these over emotional and subjective campaigners chose not to comment until all facts are known. Justice is served better that way!


One does wonder how far these bodies feed the hurt after these events. Perhaps counselling should remain the domain of calm, objective medical experts and not these over-emotionally charged campaign spokespersons. I know the Swiss received counselling in the depth of their personal black hole from expert medics - then counselled themselves and each other. Result? They can discuss and remember their two dead (one plane crash and one car crash similar to the one which started BRAKE! ) without handwringing and white heat anger now - and Wildy herself - well you know she's OK! (sort of )

Rules 202 to 206 do advise drivers that they need a greater stopping distance in wet weather and to be aware if steering becomes unresponsive - aquaplaning tyres may bot be gripping the road properly.

Rules 203-206 deal with ice and snow... from the logic of warm drinks, lights, keeping a distance and being alert as to a changing road condition. Importantly - listen out for the silence of the tyre on the road.

However, on this occasion - the weather appeared cold but mild. Early frost had cleared. But this patch was a cold spot. All would have seemed normal until he hit the black ice.

As for the emotional outbursts as quoted in the paper..it does not seem to cross these people's mind that this chap is just as much a victim of an appallingly tragic event in much the same way as the bereaved families. He may be alive - but he has to live with the consequences of causing these deaths - and because of a black icy condition which he could not have foreseen - and on which he would have spun with new tyres and he was reportedly 10 mph below the speed limit for this road at the time anyway. As such - he needs help just as much as the bereaved and injured in coming to terms with this tragedy.

Truly caring organisations would acknowledge and accept that all involved in this kind of incident suffer great trauma and all need compassion and help. Vigilante ranting and blaming - especially when an investigation is still on-going does not help the grieving members of the cycling club at all.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's when you are clearing up any of these messes - that's when you see the real and true impact on those involved - so who caused what to happen. Even if it's clear cut that someone definitely made a stupid mistake - or was even above a limit - you still have to be aware as as arresting officer that these people are also suffering badly from the shock and that they are also terrified of the consequences. You have to be objective and non judgemental when taking statements and getting the evidence together too.

All the reports though of this incident - even from the surviving cyclists - testified that this driver was severely traumatised by the event - and given this was a pure tragedy in which he happened on the black ice at the exact same split second as the cyclists - and that this would have happened at any low speed and despite the tyre issue i in this situation - I find the quotes in the paper from persons who should know better and which also come across as vigilante blaming grossly distasteful and far from helpful to anyone directly involved.


A bit like vultures picking over the bones of a tragedy in an attempt to bandy the case for a speed camera instead of addressing the real issues of POWER, COAST , listening to the car/bike and its handling on the road.

Bottom line for me is that all involved in that awful tragedy are victims of the circumstance and all will need a lot of help and support to come to terms with this.

With the late Ferdl and Rudi - the Swiss remember all the fun things those guys did in their life time and reflect on what they would have made of this world and society we created since - if they were still here. You never forget them and you always have that feeling of loss and regret - but you should never dwell on the tragedy itself. It is self destructive to do so and the people this family loved would never want that.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Thats it. They have finally lost the plot. This is proof Brake simply don't have a CLUE.

They have lost touch with all reality, and all they seem to want to do is punish the driver irrespective of whos at fault.

MADNESS.

What on earth are they going on about?

He was near cyclists and bad weather, therefore its his fault? They are just simply acting irrationally.

From what I remember this accident happened on a bend and the cyclist’s came from the opposite direction, so the driver probably didn’t even know there where cyclist’s in front of him until both he and the cyclist’s arrived at the bend. As it was a clear sunny morning he would not expect, and would not have known there to be any black ice on the road. As far I’m concerned roadpeace are talking out of there backsides, and what’s really annoying is that they are the people who will be taken notice of.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.