Safe Speed Forums

John Scheerhout reports in "Manchester Evening - today)



Well - it did not stop 415 drivers speeding then. Nor as someone who reads the MEN fairly regularly have I ever read of carnage on this road. Heck - twas on the road I used to drive on when travelling from the Uni to a hospital based training stint at Bury General.

The paper reckoned that week in week out - this cam was raking it in in fines. The scammers deny it and claim the camera housing is often empty and denied a high annual total in fine cash, They claimed all their £3.5m revenue had been raised by the collective "efforts of all their cameras and traffic light cameras in 2005"

Anti-scam campaigners for the Manchester area told the "MEN" that if so many were being fined by this scam on a 30 mph road - then perhaps the limit should be 40 mph instead.

The documents came to light after a driver was snapped for the THIRD TIME at 39-41 mph

(Yep Sure the cam is "slowing folks down" as claimed by Drivesafe above )

The driver challenged the police to prove the scam was properly calibrated and was sent a document from a camera technician working for GMP.

The documents showed tha 415 drivers had been pinged within a seven day period: 244 were pinged on 1 - 3 Nov and 171 snapped on 4-7 Nov 2005.

The prats claimed most of these were fire crews answering 999 calls.

The MEN though has the evidence - the cars snapped going TOWARDS the station. It does not have fire crews returning to base at legal speeds.

Waffling and shuffling of feet seems to waft across this article at this point



Now I happen to know where this fire station is. There is only the one very large one on Bury New Road serving a wide area in this area of Manchester. There are not others near-by. Been there years.. recall passing it when I was doing my clinical studies down there. (St Andrews medics study pre-clinical medical studies at St Andrews and then either move to Manchester or Dundee to complete clinicals.. we get benefit of two degrees for one course )



Yep - 415 in 7 days ... I call that "effective fund raising"



(Witty photo inserted by MEN - photo of this scam with "GOTCHA!" Think this sums up the paper's opinion )



I swear I can hear her saying "nanananana!" to the reporter

Only they cannot be working that well as she is sending out those brochures to firms whose employees have been pinged and lived to tell the tale of their woes and rage against these scams. Does not tally with her other figures regarding high KSI rate amongst people on work business plus commuters.

Besides GMP set up most of the scams. Drivesafe have moved some of them per the family living down in Manchester. They have also moved the VAS and Smiley Sids which GMP erected when they were in charge. (Both on A580/A6 have vanished and the A6 one enforcing a 50 mph road has a 30 mph just in the field of vision as the scam comes into view. Judging from debris and tyre marks - reckon a lot of rear enders as a result of this.)

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The camera isn't obvious, being a Truvelo it's on the other side of the road. But the speed limit is reasonable here and it's built up, so I don't see the problem.

I think Mad Moggie has made the point. If accidents are rare on this road and so many people are driving over the limit, does it not suggest the limit is to low.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Nope.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q ... 1&t=k&om=1

That's where the camera is. It's a regular 30mph suburban route through a busy neighbourhood.

Setting a 40 limit here would be silly, people would do 45-50mph, and there's a lot of shadows cast by those trees which can conceal some side junctions. It's a predominantly Jewish area, so there tend to be more cyclists and pedestrians going to and from schools and the Synagogue. It's also one of the main routes in to the City Centre, so it's regularly congested.

I find it difficult to even ACHIEVE the speed limit when the road is congested, let alone BREAK it!

There must be times when it is possible to make progress at 40 mph, for so many drivers to have paid their tolls!
I would like to see a police presence at critical times, targetting dangerous drivers, with awareness courses for the WORST offenders - the ones who need it the most.
When they are stopped at the side of the road, making no progress whatsoever, it is far more effective than a NIP in the post a week later!

There is no lesson learned and nothing gained (except by the camera operators!) from simply fining large numbers of drivers.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

In many situations these days, especially in NSL zones, I find travelling at the posted speed limit to be rarely encountered joy!

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Simon

Well, well, good 'ole mpaton2004. You can always rely on him/her putting in a 'sensible' post, (or is it sensible ?). So here's a question -

If the local council, (for whatever obscure reason), applied a blanket 20 mph limit over the whole of Manchester, without any exceptions, would this be OK for him ?
Does he think there would be any inconvenience to anybody, for instance ?

Does he think all council and central government actions have the majority agreement of the population in all cases and in all places ?

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

I'm not saying there aren't some inappropriate limits. I'm saying this isn't one of them, and having driven up that road tonight, the camera is clearly signed about 1/4 mile before in both directions with a standard sign showing a 30 mph roundel and a camera symbol underneath.

If people are getting busted for 41mph, then they must be showing ~45 on the speedo, which is completely inappropriate anyway considering it's a built up area. Not only that, the report said someone was caught 3 times - if your obs skills are that poor, then you have to question the ability of the driver anyway.

Not necessarily, some speedos aren't that inaccurate... mine would be reading around 42ish (the needle would definitely be nearer the 40 tick than the 45 tick).




But is it really? I don't know the road, but looking at the aerial photo link you provided this stretch looks to be a relatively wide road with fairly low density buildings set back quite a way from the roadside. Clearly it is in a built-up area of sorts, but does that automatically render it unsuitable for anything above 30?

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Chris

Not meaning to split hairs, just because an area is 'built up' does not mean the limit should be 30.

I can think of several major roads that go through london, which are extremely heavily built up on both sides, which pedestrians could walk on to if they wanted to and cyclists could cycle along if they wished, but have 50mph limits in place. Take the A41 for instance. Some sections have crash barriers and pedestrian crossings but the limit of 50mph is suitable and appropriate in my opinion. Setting a speed limit depends on much more on whether an area is built up or not.

Going back to the limit in question, i couldn't pass comment unless i were to drive down it.

The road isn't actually that wide. Just before the camera it transitions from a dual lane from the traffic lights into a single lane going up a light right hander on a shallow gradient. There's a few houses which front on to the pavement and there's a right hand turn lane just after a left bend a bit further on, at busy times this backs up and can be a hazard to people coming round the corner.

I get the distinct impression that people on here are only here to complain about not being allowed to drive at higher speeds. When limits are set appropriately and cameras are present, then people just seem to complain. If the limit was 40 and there was a camera, it'd be the same story.

I disagree.
The vast majority of people drive safely and courteously and are involved in VERY FEW (if any) accidents over a vary long period of time. They skilfully observe the environment that they are travelling in, and using their experience, proceed at an appropriate speed (AS). Feeling safe is a large factor in choosing a comfortable AS.
If many vehicles are travelling at an AS of more than 30mph on a particular stretch of road at a particular time, then the chosen AS is probably a safe speed. That's how driving and safety works.

Changing the speed limit does not change this principle, so at a certain point the speed limit could be increased without changing the AS chosen by the drivers.

I believe that this is related to "85th percentile" stuff, but I'll leave it to someone else to post the link or explain the theory.

Either way, I think that accident history (and causes/condirtions) should always be looked at carefully - and intelligently - when setting speed limits.

Look more positively on life and the people around you (pedestrians, cyclists AND drivers), and try being a little less untrusting and suspicious. The REAL criminals will be easy enough to spot, and should be handled by the police in an appropriate manner.

So do I.

Complaining about nit-picking laws is one thing - whinging about speed limits another. And the whining that goes on in here is often metaphorically lounder than those jets you and I are used to mate!
Which is why I can't be bothered any more.

Comes with the territory, mate.
Wherever you go people have their "thing" to discuss, debate and moan about. Spose discussing speed enforcement stuff is to be expected here.

Why not try something different? For instance, following on from the Gina Ford debate, I checked out a forum on www.mumsnet.com - click on talk, then find "relationships". There's some great moans and whines in there, mainly about partners etc...
...mind you there was one I saw where a poster was publicising to the world that her man had found her G-spot (at last I've found a use for that smiley!).

This forum would not exist if I believed any of that. I'm sure we have a few whingers, but that's life. Most folk here clearly want better policy and safer roads.

Personally (for myself) I want to be able to concentrate on safe driving without too much distraction from the law.

Anyway the idea that a speed limit can be continuously appropriate is pretty absurd:

- Is it appropriate when the road narrows?
- Is it appropriate when traffic chages from heavy to light?
- Is it appropriate when I drive a Transit instead of the (imaginary) Porsche?
- Is it equally appropriate on the bend and on the straight?
- Is it equally appropriate when it's raining and when it's dry?
- Is it equally appropriate day and night?
- and on and on and on...

For the campaign I want sound, sustainable, evidence based road safety policy, and an end to the lies.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think there is good reason to concerned about speed limits, they are a useful road tool, yet their increasingly absurd and inconsistant application is seriously limiting their usefulness.

Please don't dismiss other peoples concerns as 'whinging', I think these people who allegedly 'whinge' have a very valid point most of the time.

I get a completely different impression, i think people on here don't appreciate having thier perfectly safe and reasonable driving speed classed as criminal behaviour, when it clearly is not.

I would welcome any form of speed limit alteration, up or down, if it were justified and would make the roads safer

I don't think its fair of you to tar us all with the same 'pro-speed' brush.

Lower speeds don't always equate to safer speeds.

Another issue is I think several people use Paul's quotes verbatim to jump on the bandwagon. I personally know of one person who reads this site and supports it who drives like an absolute lunatic. I would suggest there are plenty more!

But there you go.

The whole issue of speed is really rather simple. Drive appropriately, and within the speed limit at all times. Speed cameras then become a null issue. Why do people have so much trouble with that? If the conditions are clear, then tough shit - the limit is still 30/40/50/NSL.

Thanks.

But the simple answer to all those points which covers all possibilities is as above - drive appropriately and within the speed limits at all times. It answers every single one of your questions.

If thats what you think then I respectfully think you have thoroughly misunderstood what this campaign represents.