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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 18:54 
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SKY news, road deats spark test shake up
Just got back from SKY News where Claire did her first major live interview. Sky were squarking out that governmet were to extend driving test to 500 hours yet no other news sources have picked up on it. I will leave Claire to report on her part as I was in "The Green Room" where the telly didn't work. I could hear the reporter at the traffic canter and Nick Freeman (Mr Loophole) but not Claire's part.

Infact its not even on the DfT website.... http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/dft/ did the spin it up because sky news was doing a day on road deaths?

All I could find is the learning to drive consultation... http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/ope ... ingtodrive

Quote:
Mark White, Home Affairs correspondent

Britain is set for the biggest shake-up of the driving test in nearly 70 years in an attempt to cut the number of deaths on the roads.

The driving test may be overhauled so it better addresses safety issues


The Road Safety Minister has told Sky News that the Government wants to change the culture of the test so road safety plays a more prominent role.

The move comes as part of an effort to cut the huge number of young and newly qualified drivers killed or seriously injured on Britain's roads every year.



Sky News: On The Road
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- Speed Kills: On the frontline with the Air Ambulance service

- 'I loved Margaret from her first breath and will love her until my last'

- 'I wish I could get out of this wheelchair'

- Which is Britain's most hated road?

- Interactive: Which is Britain's most hated road?

- Interactive: How dangerous is your route to work?





In an exclusive interview, Jim Fitzpatrick MP said: "We are talking about a driving qualification taking place in schools and colleges to prepare people for driving and the whole issue of road safety.
"We're talking about completely revamping the testing procedure which has pretty much remained the same since the 1940s.

"What we've been doing is teaching people how to mechanically manoeuvre a vehicle, not teaching them to drive safely so we're actually changing the whole culture of the driving test and how we prepare people for that driving test".



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Figures released in June showed road deaths in 2007 had dropped below 3,000 for the first time since records began.

But in comparison with other forms of transport, the numbers remain staggering.

Five people were killed in accidents on the railways in 2007; 19 people were killed in private light aircraft crashes but the number of deaths on the road were 2,943.

While acknowledging that progress had been made, Mr Fitzpatrick insisted there was still more to be done.

"We are still killing eight people a day in this country," he said.

"If you saw that happen in aviation or on the railway it would be major news headlines for days, even weeks.


The whole life we'd envisaged with Margaret is totally gone. Nothing can replace it. What can you replace those dreams with? There will be wedding, no grandchildren, no Sunday visits for Sunday dinner.

Elizabeth Davidson, whose daughter Margaret was killed by a speeding driver.

"Because we're talking about individual instances across the country these figures don't feature very often in the media.

"But for the families and friends of those who are killed or seriously injured - and we're talking about 30,000 of those as well - these are major incidents and major tragedies so we've got to work very hard to get them down."

The Department for Transport has been carrying out a major consultation process this summer into the suitability of the current driving qualification system.

The department is expected to publish its findings and proposals in the autumn.

Vince Yearly, from the Institute of Advanced Motoring, said the current proposals did not go far enough.



Britain's Worst Roads
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"We want the Government to encourage them to carry on their driver education beyond the L-test, to start earlier and go beyond the L-test as well.

"The question is what happens after you've passed you're driving test?" he said.

"That's where we think more could be done, in that crucial six months, those first solo hours, when you really learn to drive.

"You don't have an instructor, and you may not have a parent with you.

"That's where you find out all the distractions that younger drivers have to face".



'Clunk, Click On Every Trip'



Official research suggests that around a third of deaths on the road involve a car driven by someone under 25, yet that age group only accounts for one in eight licence-holders.

Amongst those, male drivers aged 17-20 are ten times more likely to be killed or seriously injured than more experienced drivers.

Now public opinion also seems to be recognising the growing issue of young inexperienced drivers - in a survey of over 3,000 drivers undertaken by Sky News, some 60% said they believed the current driving age of 17 was too young.


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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 20:07 
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The governmet have made a statement claiming they will give 500 hours education before a driver takes thier driving test. The inference is that that would be at school. Something I am totally in support of. However I cant see the head teachers being pleased when they are asked to find 500 hours in the curiculum for zero O'levels... think of the leage tables!

I would sugest that there ought to be a health and safety (not just driving) O'level covering which might have value to employers.

Pedestrian, cycling road users
Car/van road users
The body and how it copes with accidents (taught by the biology department). and first aid.
The body and how it copes with drink and drugs and how it dosent cope
The physics of road accidents. energy transfer, braking, friction,(taught by the physics dept)
How to plan trips by all transport to be safe.
Food safety.
health and safety at work, machinery, cosh, duty of care.
Water safety.
Railway safety

Any more sugestions?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Mon Aug 25, 2008 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 21:36 
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This 500 hours thing is a load of shite whether it would be taught at school or not. People are learning to drive a car for goodness sake, not pilot a fighter jet. If people want to go beyond the basics that is up to them. If I had access to a car I would do an advanced driving course. But that is my choice to take my skills beyond the basics.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 01:10 
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Agreed Flynn, a load of crap - a badly thought out solution... as per usual rather than really thinking about how to improve something they've gone for a pointless number and from then on will say "done your 500 hours? ok - fine to go" just as "under 30? must be safe" etc. When will they learn they can't measure good drivers with silly numerical limits on everything.

On the upside... at least they're thinking beyond speed limits for once


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 08:25 
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Of course it doesn’t teach you to drive, however I am amazed reading pepipoo and talking to people just how un-informed they are. There are a whole group of people who are immersed in MTV, games and celebrity gossip and don’t read or watch the news. Your whole chance to educate them is at school. Why is teaching them how to live safely less important than teaching them religious studies or "citizenship"

If you teach biology and physics applied to real life it might be more interesting than "how plants grow" and how fast a penny accelerates when I drop it. Why shouldn't you teach them how to cook food safely? Why do I have people turning up at a BBQ with a huge frozen chicken leg and just expecting it to cook in 10 min :cry:

It is laying the foundation or safety, learning about the risks and how to manage them. Deciding the benefit of an action and the risks and then deciding if it is worth it, learning to modify the task until the risks are within limits. This is something our young road users are not doing very well.

It is not about molly coddling them. I have done plenty of things at 16 like climbing, cycling, sailing, etc I know how to rescue myself and when to call help. Today’s kids panic when they lose their mobile signal because they have no back up plan.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 23:52 
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Agree with you Anton that it is no less important than being taught Religious Studies or the next to useless games lessons (we went Bowling once a week for 12 weeks for goodness sake!) however I suspect that as it wont apply to anyone 16 or below (as none of them can drive then) they will show as much interest as they do at RS lessons... none. You will get the very occasional child who takes it on board and wants to learn, however a majority will be disinterested and doodle on their school books. Maybe i'm being sceptical here but thinking back to my years in secondary school, we had...

- Cycling profeciancy test - can't remember a thing, only learned to cycle once I was old enough to go out cycling on roads regularly and take safety seriously
- Drugs talks - Can't remember a thing from any of these, except the copper used to bring every drug available along with him in a suitcase.
- Religious Studies - never paid the blindest bit of attention, can't remember a thing from it
- Physics - most of it is long gone and forgotten, some was useful but unaware of it at the time
- Chemistry - even more so
- Biology - tended to be slightly more relevant

--- Basically teaching road safety from a driving perspective to kids before they are old enough to, or interested in, taking their driving lessons is likely to be met with a lot of blank stares and bored minds. Force feeding them important road safety messages about being a pedestrian from a really young age would be more effective - and proved to be for huge numbers who learned the Green Cross Code and used to have actual crossing the road instruction on a regular basis in primary school - the mind is more interested and keen to learn before peer pressure and teenage years kick in.

Teaching road safety as a driver should take up some time in those crappy PSHME/Tuition/Extra Curricular lessons in 6th form though as it's then when some of them start to drive, in secondary school years (7-11) it's likely to be as much a waste of time as teaching RS for most people.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 07:35 
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People are easiest to teach as children. If we can't teach them anything then why do we send them? Something must sink in to most of them. (please)

I had a mixture of teachers sme who were useless and dull and others that were interesting and engaging. I was obviously more easily engaged in the sciences than the humanities. They failed me horrificly by pushing me (the dyslexic) into a load of stupid languages. I struggled to write in English for god sake!

I believe a lot of the lads would be more engaged in science if you put it into real senarios. Kids love watching car crashes on TV. Whilst I know lots of kids switch off , especially the girls, the ones who should be more interested are the ones at higher risk.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 08:57 
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[kinda related]Let's face it, a great deal of - some might even say most - of the stuff we were taught in school before the age of 18 is not truly essential to living our lives or plying our trades.

(I don't expect any two people's lists to be anywhere near the same, I'm just trying to make a point here)
Why shouldn't one graduate high school knowing how to:
give some basic 1st Aid, basic CPR
swim
drive a personal car or motorcycle (to include some very rudimentary self-maintenance and self-roadside assistance)
navigate your local mass transit system
speak at least one other language of the student's choice, not counting the one[s] already spoken at home
do their parents' taxes (possibly the most important math ever)
cook/bake/grill (while your parents should probably teach you this, it might also be an effective way of taking up some students' otherwise idle time, and could

Imagine a world where you are qualified to get a decent job that some people might actually want to do for at least twenty years upon graduating 'high school'. Is that such a bad thing?[/kinda related]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 09:08 
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Dispelling the notion that "You really learn how to drive after passing your L-Test" would be a great step in the right direction. While I know it didn't take my eldest nephew 500 hours for me to teach him how to drive, I know that has a lot to do with how much attenttion he was paying to my driving long before he was fourteen; I guess you could say he put in a lot of the time on his own?

Harder, and much more important, is teaching and testing things like social road skills, realtime risk detection / assessment / management, distraction management, all-round awareness, etc

True, these skills require time to develop, but some people don't need 500 hours to get it all down, and some won't get it after five thousand hours.

Police driving instructors should be extensively consulted here, since they will be doing the realworld testing ...

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 00:11 
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A controversial one this, however I think it holds should be given some serious consideration.

Computer Games... I played them through my youth (and to this day). Some of the driving ones are obviously ridiculous (need for speed etc) some of them fantastic. And I'm not saying this as a sole means for education, but Gran Turismo certainly gave me serious lessons on braking distances, cornering, how different cars handle, changing gears etc [you actually have to get licenses to race in this game, with each license requiring you to learn the braking distances/acceleration/handling abilities of different cars]... Colin McRae rally games teach of handling in wet etc. They don't teach us how to drive, but they do educate on all these important aspects of driving.

I feel they definately had a positive effect on my ability to learn to drive, and my awareness of how cars handle differently in the wet, how some cars take longer to slow down, how the difference in weight between cars makes them corner differently etc. You obviously aren't feeling the cars as not real, however it brings it to their attention.

Has anyone ever played the above mentioned games? How do you feel they influence young people?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 13:13 
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mmltonge wrote:
A controversial one this, however I think it holds should be given some serious consideration.

Computer Games... I played them through my youth (and to this day). Some of the driving ones are obviously ridiculous (need for speed etc) some of them fantastic. And I'm not saying this as a sole means for education, but Gran Turismo certainly gave me serious lessons on braking distances, cornering, how different cars handle, changing gears etc [you actually have to get licenses to race in this game, with each license requiring you to learn the braking distances/acceleration/handling abilities of different cars]... Colin McRae rally games teach of handling in wet etc. They don't teach us how to drive, but they do educate on all these important aspects of driving.

I feel they definately had a positive effect on my ability to learn to drive, and my awareness of how cars handle differently in the wet, how some cars take longer to slow down, how the difference in weight between cars makes them corner differently etc. You obviously aren't feeling the cars as not real, however it brings it to their attention.

Has anyone ever played the above mentioned games? How do you feel they influence young people?
Which games specifically?
The major problems with most, if not all of them, are the overarching competitive aspect, and how relativelty unimportant it often is to drive the car properly to both a technical racer's standard, and a social standard.

Until the IAM actually designs its own videogame, I suppose it could weigh in on each game with its opinion about whether or not this or that aspect of the game was realistic, sets a bad example, is in an appropriate context, etc.

What always rubs me wrong, is how my younger nephew will pay 99.99% attention to driving in the game, but less when actually driving.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 20:26 
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The only one, in my experience, which makes a very strong point of teaching gamers how to learn braking distances, cornering techniques etc is Gran Turismo. Yes there is a competitive element (otherwise no one would play it... you've got to get people interested somehow) however I'm not suggesting it is teaching how to drive on the road - just that it did a good job on me with regards to bringing things like how to take the cars braking capabilities into account, the cars weight, it's tyres, it's engine etc - all things that they don't get taught in a test. ie - 30 means you can brake in time... whereas the game brings to the attention that some cars can stop from 50 in the distance it takes others to stop from 30, for example.

The only other game I've used which has attempted some level of realism (I assume) would be Colin McRae rally series... whilst this game is all about going places fast, it does bring to attention how to control a slide (which direction to turn the wheel in a skid) which could certainly prove useful should someone enter a spin at some stage in their driving life.

---

My main point was, I do think the above games have had a positive effect on my driving ability - has anyone else found the same, would you open your minds to it if not played these games yourself?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 08:51 
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tThese games do teach you to look ahead beyond corner one to the distance and at the road surface. Although there is no tuition. If you don't learn you will crash.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 05:25 
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As I have come to view it - by way of teaching my ten year old niece how to drive - I have come to be reminded of watching her grow.

What sort of hell would require her to learn to walk in a pub or discotheque while some people are dancing crazily, others are stumbling drunk, and some scruffy men and women are hitting on her?

Aren't you glad your little ones learned how to walk in the privacy of her own home, in the company of family and friends, instead of in public?

My niece and I go to Flushing Meadow Park once or twice a week, and she steers while I work the pedals (the Caprice's onepiece benchseat allows this easily).

She navigates in, around, and to and from parking lots with almost no one around; the few who do show up consider seeing a vehicle as a novelty to be treated with respect.

I wonder if I can alter the throttle cable so that the throttle plate will only open as far as I want it to - say, 20% at first?

I might get an auxiliary brake pedal, but this thing is so roomy - she used to hide from me inside the footwells. I can sit perfectly in the middle, and reach the brakepedal easily.

Anyway, my point is, since neither the New York City Dept of Transportation, nor the Dept of Motor Vehicles will step up to the plate, I will, starting with "Car Control", well before she has to interact with more than one driver at a time in a traffic [/social] setting.

Anybody have any ideas on how to make your young ones [theoretically] ready to pass the test the moment they became eligible? (If this should be broken off to form another thread, so be it.)

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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