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 Post subject: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 00:19 
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Government to increase use of the 20mph limit.

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 15:48 
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Article here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... eaths.html

Quote:
20mph limit to cut road deaths
Speed limits are to be cut on roads across the country under government plans to reduce accidents.

By Andrew Porter and David Millward
Last Updated: 9:43AM BST 18 Apr 2009

Motorists driving on residential roads and near schools will be forced to obey a strict 20mph limit, under proposals to be unveiled next week.

Limits on roads which are known to be accident black spots could also be reduced.

Ministers – who are keen to improve road safety but not to alienate motorists – will also indicate that new speed cameras should only be placed in areas where crashes occur frequently.

The new guidance from the Department for Transport is part of a push to reduce road accidents and fatalities. Almost 3,000 people died on British roads in 2007, figures show.

Councils in Portsmouth, Newcastle, Oxford and Leicester are already introducing 20mph speed limits on residential roads. Although it is local authorities that ultimately decide speed limits, ministers expect their latest guidance to be acted upon.

A Department for Transport source said: "We are trying to get the balance right between motorists and everyone else and this is a way of reminding local authorities that they have got these powers and they should use them.

"It is proven that the 20mph limit does lower the number of accidents and we do not think that anyone should be up in arms about this as it is a sensible idea."

In a consultation document to be published on Tuesday, Jim Fitzpatrick, the Transport Minister, will say it is important that highway authorities look at bringing in 20mph limits on residential roads, including all those near schools.

Research has found that pedestrians hit by a vehicle at 20mph have a greater chance of survival. Only one in 40 dies at 20mph, compared with one in five at 30mph.

Robert Gifford, of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, welcomed the plans. "The 20mph zones are proven to save lives and that is especially important when thinking about children and the elderly," he said.

But the proposals were condemned by Claire Armstrong, who runs the anti-camera group Safespeed. She said: "I find this extremely disturbing. If you make drivers go at a speed where they are not comfortable, they will be distracted and inattentive and that is what causes accidents. This Government seems obsessed with speed as a prime factor for causing accidents."

In an attempt to mollify motorists, however, new guidance will be issued on the use of speed cameras.

Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, believes speed cameras should not be placed "in a blanket way". Instead, camera operators will be expected to put new devices in areas that are accident black spots.

The Government has been criticised for allowing police forces and local authorities to use cameras as little more than revenue making devices. But Mr Hoon has let officials know that the Government cannot be seen as anti-motorist, after damaging rows over issues such as the proposed rise in green car taxes.

The total number of people killed on Britain's roads has fallen to its lowest level since records began in 1926, the latest Department for Transport figures show. In 2007, 2,940 people died, a drop of seven per cent on the previous year.

Of those, 644 were pedestrians, 22 per cent of the total. The number of children killed fell to a record low of 121.

As highway authorities already have these powers (and have used them far more than the report suggests) this sounds just like a typical NuLabour respinning of existing policy.

And what on earth is the justification for 24/7 20 mph limits around schools when the heightened risk only exists for at most 20 hours a week?

I had to give a hollow laugh at the comment that "Ministers are keen not to alienate motorists". I had gained the impression they had been doing a pretty good job of that over the past twelve years :x

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 17:54 
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I thought the injury and fatality rate per mile travelled in 20 mph limits was actually higher than in 30mph limits?


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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 19:51 
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teabelly wrote:
I thought the injury and fatality rate per mile travelled in 20 mph limits was actually higher than in 30mph limits?

]
Depends how built up .. I suppose.


:scratchchin:

I do not have too much of a problem with the 20 mph in the villages here. Nor does Wildy.

I do have a problem with a blanket ruling and assertion that it "saves lives" when I know of three kids hit at 5 mph in own driveways and who all tragically died. :cry: :cry:


I want to know what they mean by "new devices in black spot areas" given I have just had an interesting conversation with my sister who was shopping in Boots/Bolton Assistant commenting on her lovely complexion when purchasing make-up confided she and her husband got speeding fines from a cam they were aware of within weeks of each other. She said they lived in the area for years. No accident occurred on that road ever. Her husband got SACat 34 mph. She got points at 36 mph.

Jazz tells me she asked this lady to send all documents to Claire.

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 20:25 
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PeterE wrote:
Article here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... eaths.html

Quote:
20mph limit to cut road deaths
Speed limits are to be cut on roads across the country under government plans to reduce accidents.

By Andrew Porter and David Millward
Last Updated: 9:43AM BST 18 Apr 2009

Motorists driving on residential roads and near schools will be forced to obey a strict 20mph limit, under proposals to be unveiled next week.

Limits on roads which are known to be accident black spots could also be reduced.

Ministers – who are keen to improve road safety but not to alienate motorists – will also indicate that new speed cameras should only be placed in areas where crashes occur frequently.

The new guidance from the Department for Transport is part of a push to reduce road accidents and fatalities. Almost 3,000 people died on British roads in 2007, figures show.

Councils in Portsmouth, Newcastle, Oxford and Leicester are already introducing 20mph speed limits on residential roads. Although it is local authorities that ultimately decide speed limits, ministers expect their latest guidance to be acted upon.

A Department for Transport source said: "We are trying to get the balance right between motorists and everyone else and this is a way of reminding local authorities that they have got these powers and they should use them.

"It is proven that the 20mph limit does lower the number of accidents and we do not think that anyone should be up in arms about this as it is a sensible idea."

In a consultation document to be published on Tuesday, Jim Fitzpatrick, the Transport Minister, will say it is important that highway authorities look at bringing in 20mph limits on residential roads, including all those near schools.

Research has found that pedestrians hit by a vehicle at 20mph have a greater chance of survival. Only one in 40 dies at 20mph, compared with one in five at 30mph.

Robert Gifford, of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, welcomed the plans. "The 20mph zones are proven to save lives and that is especially important when thinking about children and the elderly," he said.

But the proposals were condemned by Claire Armstrong, who runs the anti-camera group Safespeed. She said: "I find this extremely disturbing. If you make drivers go at a speed where they are not comfortable, they will be distracted and inattentive and that is what causes accidents. This Government seems obsessed with speed as a prime factor for causing accidents."

In an attempt to mollify motorists, however, new guidance will be issued on the use of speed cameras.

Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, believes speed cameras should not be placed "in a blanket way". Instead, camera operators will be expected to put new devices in areas that are accident black spots.

The Government has been criticised for allowing police forces and local authorities to use cameras as little more than revenue making devices. But Mr Hoon has let officials know that the Government cannot be seen as anti-motorist, after damaging rows over issues such as the proposed rise in green car taxes.

The total number of people killed on Britain's roads has fallen to its lowest level since records began in 1926, the latest Department for Transport figures show. In 2007, 2,940 people died, a drop of seven per cent on the previous year.

Of those, 644 were pedestrians, 22 per cent of the total. The number of children killed fell to a record low of 121.

As highway authorities already have these powers (and have used them far more than the report suggests) this sounds just like a typical NuLabour respinning of existing policy.

And what on earth is the justification for 24/7 20 mph limits around schools when the heightened risk only exists for at most 20 hours a week?

I had to give a hollow laugh at the comment that "Ministers are keen not to alienate motorists". I had gained the impression they had been doing a pretty good job of that over the past twelve years :x



You know . I agree with you. :popcorn: Folk accept if they see fair logic. I think they fail to convey fair logic. :popcorn:

Oh. do I have problem with 20 mph in a residential.. not really as this may well be the safes speed of personal choice anyway :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 20:34 
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In Gear wrote:
Oh. do I have problem with 20 mph in a residential.. not really as this may well be the safes speed of personal choice anyway :wink:

I'm not too bothered about 20 mph limits on minor residential streets, although I regard it as pointless gesture politics.

But the problem is that they are increasingly spreading to major through routes in urban areas, thus needlessly extending journey times.

And peds can play risk compensation just as well as motorists - if cars travel slower, peds take more risks around them. Piccadilly Bus Station in Manchester is notorious for pedestrians accidents despite the typical bus speed being 10 mph or less.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 20:55 
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PeterE wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Oh. do I have problem with 20 mph in a residential.. not really as this may well be the safes speed of personal choice anyway :wink:

I'm not too bothered about 20 mph limits on minor residential streets, although I regard it as pointless gesture politics.

But the problem is that they are increasingly spreading to major through routes in urban areas, thus needlessly extending journey times.

And peds can play risk compensation just as well as motorists - if cars travel slower, peds take more risks around them. Piccadilly Bus Station in Manchester is notorious for pedestrians accidents despite the typical bus speed being 10 mph or less.


Hi Pete

I know and understand completely . I think the courts will have to take a lot of stuff on board here.

There are way too many contradictory assertions ot say who is right . and nothing PEER reviewed either :popcorn:

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 21:41 
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Well the dft have figures out showing ksi 20 mph = 17% and 30mph = 13%.

Making drivers look at the speedo, instead of concentrating on pot hazards, and doing that through education and guidance. The more responsibility that every driver understand & appreciates they need to employ while driving, helps to improve road safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 17:56 
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PeterE wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Oh. do I have problem with 20 mph in a residential..

Do you know how much it costs us for them to create the legal documents and get the signs installed? That bothers me. All of our money wasted on making our roads so ugly, and for nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 18:20 
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I suggested in one interview as a Concept Possibility , that I have done recently that ....
.... "even if they wanted people to slow in very busy areas, and it is statically proven will make a real world difference, that they can see that the 20mph might work then why not introduce a new 'guide' limit say for example and only for residential problem areas, a NEW road sign that is a square but same coloured, and they are GUIDES, if they Really think that a whole new process is required". Or approximate words to this effect.
BUT this idea of theirs, will never work and make things safe as it will not gain respect and so not be adhered to.

I do not believe that 60 to 50 and 30 to 20 is anything other than another knee jerk reaction and never address the core problems namely that drivers are not always driving to conditions. When Cathy Hickens said that they couldn't think of anything else, to do from the Speed Awareness problem, I think this is the exact thinking. They have no idea what to do - there speed policies are so ingrained they really do not remember that Public info films, posters, education, guidance CAN make a difference.
No one goes out to have an accident or break the Law, they try to do the right thing, and in the right way. And then what about the lorries going 40 and we try to overtake at 50mph ??? It is Already increasing accidents and very dangerous one's too.
We can only (mostly) help drivers do better but educating, guiding, showing and providing information in many ways to help people 'get it right', the road engineering and design can play a large part too.

We have had the safest roads in the World for an exceptionally long time. What we did was right for the real world conditions. The Gov went and changed it and now it is messed up. No one wants anyone to die, but we ave to ensure that before we roll out extremely low speed limits that they are truly necessary and that they are going to be respected and are predictable.

This scheme is a sham on road safety and WILL kill & injure more people because of frustration, distraction and inattention.

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 Post subject: Re: Telegraph 18.04.09
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 09:40 
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Looking at these stats and althought they do only go upto 2006. From what I can see KSI's on 20mph have risen, as Teabelly has says. (you will have to scroll down to where I have highlighted the 2 rows.

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