Safe Speed Forums

When are these clowns who put trees / foliage etc. on roundabouts going to learn what stupid things these are.

Firstly they completely obscure the drivers view of the roundabout as how many times has a lorry driver (or anyone else) started to negotiate the roundabout to find someone has started to come round who was completely out of view because of the trees and foliage atc, blocking the drivers view.

Also as you can,t see who is approaching the roundabout you don,t know who is signalling to turn either or who is approaching from the other side.

ALL roundabouts should be TOTALLY OBSTRUCTION FREE to enable drivers to see who and what is approaching them and should be no higher than a max. of 18 inches!

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

I agree entirely.

There was quite a debate about this in a local rag regarding the roundabouts on the Blandford Bypass about six months ago. It boiled down to one side saying "how can being able to see more be a bad thing?" and the other side saying "it means you can go faster, and speed kills"



I attached my letter to a thread regarding this here

Check out the reply I got, it really is beyond parody.

There are a few roundabouts like that around my way too Some did have wicker fencing at the side of the approach road as well with all the plants and shrubs stuck in the middle as well. Don't think I will write a letter if thats the responses you get

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RoADA Member -GOLD 2008
If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

I would use the IAM "Roadcraft" manual on the question about signalling on roundabouts (and incidentally anywhere else).

Their guidance is simply to indicate if another road user or pedestrian will gain advantage of your intentions by indicating as there is no valid reason for indicating to an empty space as you can always indicate when you see another road user who would gain an advantage in you indicating your intentions.

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Quite.

I find it makes you think and observe the surrounding roadpsace more carefully also; "are there any other road users who I may affect? would I assist them by providing information about by intended course of action?".

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Simon

This is a debate we have had on here before and one where I disagree with Roadcraft/IAM.

My argument boils down to this:

What about roadusers you can't see? Why not signal anyway? What is there to lose?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I've noticed this too. Holes Bay North roundabout has some very long grass growing on it. There was a point before they planted the grass and dumped the boat on it (which doesn't seem to get in the way much, strangely) when you could actually see across and into the distance! It was like driving in another country!

Holes Bay (middle? south?) roundabout have Buoys places so you can't see across.

The worst I have seen is the A31 where there appears to be a small metal shed erected either side so when coming from the main road you look and can see there's nothing coming, then as you get closer and have another look to be sure there's suddenly a shed in the way and you have to brake hard just in case you missed something!

Of course all of this increases congestion. The faster you can be around the roundabout the faster you can be out of the way. Also less queues means less chance of the "roundabout accident" happening.

I wonder if you could hire some kind of machinery to go chopping this nonsense down. I don't know how you chop down a buoy though...

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Andrew.

I had a similar argument with a collegaue who had just come back from an expensive John Lyons driving course. Eager to pick his brains, we discussed what he'd learned (which, I have to say, he was largely very impressed with) but the argument ended up something like this:

Me: ...but surely if you just get into the habit of indicating everywhere whether there are other road users there or not, it will become almost subconscious, freeing up my tiny brain to concentrate on other things?

Him: ...ah but only indicating when there is someone else to see you brings the advantage of disciplining yourself to automatically look for other road users and then use that information to take the decision whether or not to indicate EVERY time you make a manoeuvre.


To be honest, I think it's probably not very different either way - or to put it another way, if, as a Nation, that was the only thing in normal everyday driving we were left to worry about, I'm sure we'd have VERY low KSI rates!

I have sympathy with both arguments, but I’m swayed to the ‘consider the need for indicators’ camp because I strongly believe we should never do anything by rote.

Also, to always consider the use of indicators should prevent misleading signals.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I understand your points of view but I would not be so arrogant as to assume:

- I actually have seen every potentially affected roaduser
- I can make a decision on their behalf whether they would be advantaged by my signalling.

I think it may be the rather stupid wording of the Roadcraft advice that irks me. I think you should do all the observation stuff and then signal anyway.

There must be a lot of other people out there reasoning that I do not need the advantage of a signal from them. I see them all the time.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

That’s stretching my argument a bit, but in essence they are exactly the questions you should be asking yourself (with the addition - would anyone be mislead by my signal).

My point was that we should do nothing by ‘mechanical repetition’, however it’s probably the safest option for most road users.



I also see them all the time but I doubt if many of them even know what Roadcraft is, let alone read it.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I ought to stress that it isn't necessarily MY point of view! I did think about it a lot following the exchange with my colleague and it's true that John Lyons is a highly respected figure but I have to say that I still tend to lean towards my original view.

One thing that went a long way towards persuading me is my current driveway. It is not far from a blind bend on a single track road. As I approach from the direction that means I'm turning right into my drive, I indicate even if I can't see anything. That's because if something DID come round the bend at the last second, I wouldn't want to have the delay of spotting it and THEN indicating.

That's not incompatible with the 'deliberate indication' view. You can plan a signal that may benefit a road user who you have not yet seen.

Turning left in town is a frequent case in point. I'll give a signal IN CASE there's a pedestrian in the side road thinking about crossing. What I won't do is give a signal by habit because I'm planning to turn.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

18 inches! Are you lying down on a motorised skate board?

Kidding aside, I agree with you but I do like some of the ones I see which have a rockery and flowers. They look pretty and they're not so high that you can't see the traffic, so I would say no more than about three foot high myself.

It's an old argument/gripe of mine that people enter and exit roundabouts too fast for me to pull into the roundabout without looking like I've cut them up when I try and get the works diesel pool car off the mark.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

This is along the lines of a previous post (long time ago ) concerning deliberate erection of obstacles on roundabouts ( fences etc) --in my area large mounds of earth to the right.
Reasons given by my LA was prevention of shunt type accidents ---car in front not looking ahead - one in rear has checked roundabout but fails to notice that car in front has stopped. Don't know if the fences were removed, but the large mounds are still there - no idea if the accident rate has reduced. Interesting point is that in anything like a 3.5t van the view is not obstructed.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Might be a little o/t this, but it's still about affording best vision to the driver.

Was out in the jag (XJ40) this afternoon; no particular reason, it was a nice day for a run and the wife was working so why not It never fails to amaze me how good the all round vision is when I'm driving it what with the thin pillars and glass area. Especially when approaching roundabouts and junctions, I'm not having to crane my neck to peer around whacking great A-pillars. Motorways as well when doing a "lifesaver" - as it's termed in biking - before joining from a slip road. Much easier.

I'm wondering if some of the benefit afforded by improved crash protection through thickers A and B pillars in modern cars is offset by reducing visibility? If "poor observation" and "looked but didn't see" are such common factors in RTA's, could some of this be due to measures that are intended to actually protect drivers in a crash?

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Simon

How do you find the wing mirrors? I have always thought the modern trend to door mirrors provided a quantum leap in visibility over wing mirrors (as well as not impaling pedestrians).

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Well my daily drive has these wing mirrors that have blind spot sections on the extremity, and they can be useful but not all of the time. This was demonstrated to me a couple of years ago when joining the M54 where I (obviously) checked both rear view and wing mirrors, did my usual extended check of the wing mirror, then started to join the M-way whilst all the time indicating my intention to join the carriageway.

To be greeted by the sound of a horn, and the sight in my peripheral vision of a car having just joined L1 from L2.

Who was at fault? Not sure. Maybe myself for not doing a "lifesaver" prior to joining the M-way. Maybe the driver of the other car who pulled in to L1 without checking there was no-one trying to join the carriageway on his left. Whatever. Since then, it's always an over-the-shoulder check before I join a M-way but B-pillars in modern cars are so deep as to make it quite difficult. It's not a problem in the Jag.

(Which, incidentally, has wing mirrors - IMO - that are far more pedestrian-friendly than modern ones. Well. They're a little smaller and less pointy at least )

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Simon

Some of these over foliated roundabouts could house a family of chimpanzees in them or even a herd of wildebeeste, and us drivers wouldn't even know they were there.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.