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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 22:11 
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Don't let the door hit you on your way out!

Dripping essay aside, you made no attempt yourself to enter into dialogue, no attempt to show anyone why you felt that aviation doctrine could not be conveyed to the roads, and at the root of that was the fact that you did not understand flight safety doctrine, and made no effort to. You tried to tell us that you knew best about something you didn't, and resorted to nastiness when your errors were highlighted.

You may bemoan that we're everything that's wrong with the world, and I support your prerogative to do so absolutely, but don't get upset when you're corrected. The lack of 'pilot error' as a causal factor within the flight safety community has nothing to do with PC blame-aversion, but everything to do with the fact that a greater understanding of the factors behind that error will enable repeats to be avoided, rather than just removing one individual who has fallen foul of them.

Punishment only works as a deterrent where it occurs in the majority of instances of transgression, and the transgression is identifiable and intentional by the perpetrator. Punishing people for making mistakes, or falling foul of circumstances, does nothing to prevent others from doing the same.

Incidentally, the 'Swiss Cheese' model is how Reason's work is commonly known within the flight safety community, referring to it as such was not in any attempt to condescend anyone (that means talking down to, by the way :P)

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.


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 Post subject: Aviation vs Common Sense
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 09:57 
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Some people would prefer to ignore the difference between disagreeing with a point of view, and disagreeing with a person.

I will always remember
this gem ...
Herbie J wrote:
My view is there should be no discussion, it should simply be outlawed. It is a fact that when people use mobile phones - even hands free - their awareness, judgement, and reaction times are affected, and because of this it should be stopped. I have ZERO sympathy for anyone who gets nicked for using a mobile phone while driving:
1. Because of the above
2. Because it is not necessary to use phone on the move in a vehicle
3. Because arrogance and ignorance leads to questioning common sense.

People are distracted enough just changing a CD over by pressing a button on the steering column, or opening an electric window, or looking for the light switch.

What many forget is that not everyone is a competent or advanced driver who may for a few moments be able to multi task and not crash or cause a crash, some road users are utter rubbish or just complete idiots incapable of driving safely, let alone holding a conversation on the phone,
so as with everything, all rules and regs should apply to the dumbest and most incompetent.
I for one would readily accept a ban on radio/CD, along with banning passenger conversations with the driver. As ridiculous as that may appear it would reduce a lot of crashes, likewise the banning of passenger carrying by all new drivers for up to one year. It may seem a crazy thing to say but not when you look at many accident causes. Everything about modern cars are distractions, they are a coccoon with a wheel on each corner, passengers are a distraction, music can distract, comfort and quietness can distract from reality. I would happily let anyone enjoy these luxuries if only they could drive well enough, sadly the majority cannot. So its a good job for all that Im not in charge lol.
(Underlines and other modifications by The Rush)

:loco: :rotfl:

I question 'common sense', because the following occurences are becoming increasingly common:
a) pedestrians walking into traffic sans the right of way, raising their hands defiantly demanding that the car ignore the green light and stop, while the pedestrian ignores their red light and causes a traffic jam
b) highway patrol troopers hiding behind anything they can to 'catch' speeders in the act of being perfectly normal - in my youth, I remember how a single trooper could calm at least 16 cars - instead of patrolling their area with real vigilance (several state constitutions in Amerika still require a live human being to testify against you, a camera or corporate apparatus is insufficient - for now)
c) laws being passed which condescend to the lowest common duh-nominators of gut feelings, emotional tantrums, and a rush to blame and punish the last link in the chain based on superficial appearances vs scrutinous investigation of the whole chain and either confirmation or discovery

As for knowing everything, I hold this forum proximately responsible for the fact that I have read 2000 pages [just] on the subject of driving [alone] since Dec '07 - not including what I've read on the interwebs - have learned more than I possibly could have hoped, and look forward to another 2000 or so pages before the end of '08.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:33 
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The Rush wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
so as with everything, all rules and regs should apply to the dumbest and most incompetent.



I also picked up that sentiment in an exchange with him, I think arguments between this and a liberal POV could have been beneficial. A shame this thread ended up getting personal.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


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 Post subject: Learning from aviation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:10 
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Learn this from aviation:

Blaming the pilot / captain / driver / poster, and even removing them from the environment, is like removing a bad apple from a barrel.

The possibility that either other apples, and / or the barrel itself is contaminated, are ignored if one's focus remains on removing bad apples once they are seen going bad.

We won't get smarter answers if we keep asking the same dumb questions.

We won't get safer roads by removing the most dangerous drivers after the fact. We have to stop feeding them into the system in the 1st place.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 18:43 
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So how do we recognise the behaviour / traits / attitudes that 'make' a bad driver and how do we ensure that drivers are taught the 'right' attitudes to driving?

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 03:52 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
So how do we recognise the behaviours / traits / attitudes that 'make' a bad driver and how do we ensure that drivers are taught the 'right' attitudes to driving?
Since road safety is not an industry with sufficient parallels to the aviation industry, it's easy to argue that road safety is an institution in dire need of a paradigm shift - clutchless, or otherwise.

However, it's also easy to recognize some of the most important attitudes that make a bad driver:

1) any attitude that fundamentally disagrees with Rules #1 through #3 below
2) any attitude that cannot accept ultimate responsibility for its own safety, plus proximate safety for all other road users.
3) any attitude which does not hold evasion, aversion, and any other methods of failure mode prevention as the ultimate goal (incredibly rare is the case where getting there is justifiably more important than getting there safely)

Since, as an institution, road safety does not hold the latter two attitudes as its highest tenets, it is safe to guess that it itself is not as capable when it comes to reliably teaching or evaluating those attitudes as an institution that did in fact hold those tenets so.

The onus is on drivers to actively prevent crashes. Accident investigations after the fact are certainly one way to recognize overt behaviors that make for bad drivers.

Here's another:
DriveCam.
A video monitoring device - which circumvents invasion of privacy via the driver's and / or vehicle owner's consent - is installed behind the central rearview mirror.
Whenever it detects a sudden change of movement beyond a certain threshold, it stores several seconds of video before and after said trigger event.

It ain't perfect, but it's progress.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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