Safe Speed Forums

Cheers G

Cheers Dave. Am now reviewing all contributions in this debate....hence my late reponse to you. Could I ask you to elaborate about the policy you mentioned, please?

Write to all RPU for to ask about their policies re winter driving. Contact the HAs for their gritting policies and timetables with regard to normal frost and predicted deep cold.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Cheers . What's an RPU, please? And HAs are Highways' Authorities, yes? I'm waiting (darned Freedom of Info. process is really slowing my researches, especially now that my local authority are receiving regular enquiries from me ) for my Authority to send their gritting policy, but is your phrase....'normal frost and predicted deep cold' something that's an occupational-phrase that you hear/use in your work?

Co-incidentally..................http://www.htma.co.uk/smartweb/hot-topi ... tenance#w6

Also, we've received the Police Authority report about the accident. Can I ask the police for the notes made by the officer who dealt with the smash? If yes, how/ what should I ask/for, please?

Seems like the Scandinavians are ahead of us in more ways than one. See this research. It's from 2002 .............http://www2.ceri.go.jp/sirwec2002/engli ... yllyla.pdf
I've written to one of it's authors, to see if FINNRA is now using such a vehicle to uprate it's winter-treatment of roads. NB, ref my earlier posting to the TrL.....I got no reply, even after politely asking for one. Also, I've been in contact with the CEO of Tyre-Grip (in USA) and hope to have some info, soon, about where we might buy same.

S&B,

1. Keep in mind that I believe that Tyre-Grip could work much better than it does now, if
a) the chemical were enhanced
b) an on-board storage and deployment system applied the enhanced formula instantaneously, on driver demand

'Demand' could also be defined as
a) the driver's activation (my personal preference - maybe I like to sled to work in my car, on occasion)
b) inclement weather sensors arming the system at a preset threshold, and applying the resin whenever the ABS/Traction/Stability Control systems were nearing their activation, enhancing the function of the other grip-dependent systems

Do you remember the 2005 Land Rover Discovery 3? (It went by 'LR3' in Amerika.) It had a 'Terrain Response System' with five different settings:
1) general mode, for everyday driving
2) grass/gravel/snow
3) mud and ruts
4) sand
5) rock crawl

I'm more inclined to think of the Ferrari F430, of course, with its Control, Stability, and Traction System also offering five different settings:
1) ice
2) low grip
3) sport
4) race
5) off

I suppose you'd get rid of 'sport', 'race', and perhaps 'off', and substitute them with two or three other terrain/weather settings, and not necessarily all of those from the LR3/Discovery.

Either way, the point is that both systems altered the ABS/Traction/Stability Control systems intervention thresholds and character to suit conditions based on the driver's decision. I admire both systems greatly, both for their driver involvement, and their marked improvements in vehicle performance when the proper selections were made.

Finally, regarding SSS's remarks about tires, I can only speak knowledgeably of the Amerikan market, but I do wonder if the mass market confusion would ease up a bit if tire performance standards were to improve.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Ah, yes, a really good point, Buddy. Also, 'hiding' in some chemist's brain and ingenuity IS a way to enhance the performance of good old Sodium Chloride road treatment. I'm all for that kinda research.....but, then, I was an Industrial Chemist. I must get back onto the Salt Union, as I got a helpful reception from their Tech Dirctor, last time. But, then, they're only really interestd in selling the stuff............aren't they?


Oh, Oh, sorry to belittle your point, but you're making me mouth water, stop it!!!! 2nd thoughts, I prefer the Alfa 8C myself


We need a champion to take this idea forward.

S&B,

Regarding salting the roads, I very strongly suspect that the only reason salt is the popular choice is cost. There must be a chemical out there that is less corrosive to cars and at least equal, if not superior, to road salts in terms of melting, freezing, traction enhancement, etc.

It may not, however, come to pass, as it would be difficult to prove any link between better road surfaces and lower KSIs/hospital/rescue costs in a single fiscal year, which seems to be the perspective limit of the statistical analyses governments tend to favor nowadays.

You are not belittling my point, you are helping me make it. Better informing and better equipping the driver are, to me, two sides of the same coin. I see no difference between the car that does everything for you without your knowledge, and mass transit.

As far as technology is concerned, wasn't it Alfa Romeo who, after Ferrari, was the first with an automatically operated dry-friction clutch? I still 'give them props' for it. I applaud any technology whose job is to increase or preserve a driver's involvement, satisfaction, and/or abilities (some technologies could, but don't, due to differing philosophies on how that technology should be applied - best example would be just about any Lexus).

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

It seems that the European Union has already undertaken a europe-wide extensive research-project called COST 344, 1999 to 2002, which is pretty darned comprehensive. Involving Eu expertise in the matter of 'Improvements to Snow and Ice Control on European Roads and Bridges'

Here's the link..................http://www.brrc.be/pdf/cost344s.pdf ..........190 pages, long.

Is anyone familiar with COST 344, please, and/ or the influences that it has had upon local-government winter-maintenence practises in the subsequent 6 years?

Gotta keep being persistent about my previous posting, even though it's boiling hot outside.......anyone help about COST 344?

no idea about COST344 sorry !

picked up a couple more links in another industry mag article:

http://www.cvisproject.org/ (Co-operative Vehicle Infrastructure Systems)
http://friction.vtt.fi/index.html (Tyre force measurement, based on optical sensors i think)

or closer to market (i.e. 2010)
http://www.us.pirelli.com/web/technolog ... fault.page (big claims... little evidence )

Cheers Ed.
Things a little quiet in this debate, eh? Still, wintertime is slowly approaching

[quote=samandben]
This, to me, is a 'slippery-eel' which I still find difficult to grasp. It defies my logic to think that I, and those closest to me, (or for that matter many drivrs) would drive with anything other than regard for conditions.........ergo, with responsibility. After all, when comparing with other, more frequent collisions, those occurring in wintertime suggest that the risk-takers are getting it mostly right. I fully accept that, in winter, preparedness for ' response-ability' needs to be as honed as is practicable, and this is where I believe that available expertise (lots in this Forum) could be more frequently promoted. Yet, it seems that, ultimately, the only true test of preparedness is to experience a skid.

Does anyone know (or know anyone who may know) about the meteorological data shared between the Met Office & local government highways'-depts; i.e., the data which is used to decide whether to salt or not to salt roads, please?[/quote]

I certainly agree with The Rush.

It is not just understanding that the condition 'exists' but the 'what to do' and 'how to do it'. Hence why I am all for all drivers to go for Skid training.

There are many reasons for accidents. Many do not properly read the conditions, make a mistake, are distracted, not paying attentions, look but do not see, and with no knowledge or only little, an accident is frequently inevitable. Once that knowledge has been gained, some drivers can then use this to drive beyond their ability, well to a degree, but the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Most will use the knowledge gained to their abilities and skills and be that bit better prepared.

To obtain all data the sources are to follow what your authorities do, and to know that, simply ask them, and follow their information route. You will likely find them helpful. When you cannot obtain the data from the weather sources, call them and tell them what you are trying to do.

As I have stated before, understanding the full impact of the environment, is crucial to knowing what type of circumstances may be encountered. I can understand why this is very emotionally difficult to fully appreciate to full importance. Whilst I can understand that some technology may provide additional importance, I cannot see - really - how a pavement temperature can honestly 'help' and be relied on in either direction, that is as an indicator as it's freezing or that it isn't.
A pavement may be OK, but 1ft into the road could have ice, so any pavement indicator, may show a false sense of security. Then of course many roads do not have pavements.

I do think about this and I tend to think what helps me when I skid.
When I drive and it is very cold or potentially icey, my speed is extremely low, I am on 'high alert' with my steering wheel, conscious of ANY and ALL even momentary slight differences in feed back. Plus when the risk is slightly higher the stereo is turned off and the wheels go silent on ice. Now my temp indicator is set at 3 degrees warning. With the country roads that ai have as standard / regular roads I know that a 3 degrees on one bit may be -2degrees on another. It may happen in dips, over rivers, in valleys etc. BUT that indicator is NOT what I rely on - I rely on what I see. My concentration is on the road ahead with total concentration. I am scanning the road, as far as I can see and then scan back to the car, but if anything catches my eye that will be immediately noted. Now the obvious roads where there is clear frost on it, or the road is totally showing a film of iced frost, and it sparkles in the headlights (at evening / night / dark) and you know input certain car controls and you will skid, but drive in a higher gear and with car, steering as little as possible will keep you safer.

So what when the road is apparently OK. Well the fact that it is cold will have me on high alert, and feeling the steering, all factor, in how I drive the car. My vision will tell me many factors about the road, the way it goes, corners, up down, even if in thick trees, over bridges or near rivers (to some degree - sometimes local knowledge may help here). As soon as anything changes from any input, even wind picking up or snowing I will vary my car control with immediate effect. It is the vision and driving very carefully, with total readiness to alter any input appropriate to the conditions that can make it safe or as safe as you possibly can.
I would even if I had them rely on the 'gadgets'. The temp control that I have is a little guide, it is the vision and feel, that tells me the real information.
That can be learned.
It can be knowledge that drivers can be reminded of (posters, info films, courses in the first place) ...
Where and how did I learn it ... from being told, what to look for, how to recognise it and then advice from Paul, from time to time.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and preempt a common cry from some authorities on road safety for whom I have the highest respect (people like Eddie Wren).
You might want to click on this link; read Eddie Wren's article.

Here goes ...

A growing cohort of driving instructors contend that skid pan training puts young drivers at risk. They complain thatThe problem is not skills-based driver training.

The "potential for counterproductive effects" is directly linked to "insufficient practice time".

Along those lines, emergency braking training is recommended because emergency braking is an order of magnitude easier to teach, learn, and deploy correctly, and requires that much less time invested.

Which implies that skills like 'high speed braking and avoidance' and 'skid pan' are not worth the time, either to those who would teach it, to those who would learn it, or both.

I understand and agree with everything they have to say about 'knowledge-based' and 'attitude-based' instruction. I totally get the idea that 'no skid pan training' is better than 'insufficient skid pan training'. What surprises me, is that a driver and driving instructor of Eddie Wren's credentials came to the conclusion that a little is too much, so better none.
Guess what works better than both 'insufficient' and 'none'? 'Enough'.

When combined with the proper preventive advice (usually, something along the lines of 'do your best to combine acceleration or braking with turning gently, if ever at all', and/or extensive comparison of corners handled with the proper preventives such as 'late apexes' vs corners recovered from skids),
a) those who do not wish to resort to the use of skid recoveries will ALSO be better armed to avoid them
b) those who wish to enjoy skidding, will be given enough info to understand how important it is not to do so publicly - as opposed to what happens when you give them 'insufficient' time

I know it takes much longer to learn to use a steering wheel than it takes to learn to use a brake, but that isn't an excuse. At least, not in my experienced opinion. Then again, what do I know, compared to Eddie Wren?

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Although I have never used one, I cannot see for the life of me how a cradle raising a cars wheels is going to teach someone how to correct a skid on a slippery surface. How often in a skid does one wheel get raised off the ground or whatever they do on these things? To learn to control a skid on a slippery surface you have to do it in a car that reacts as a normal car. Ok the tyres may be bald and the pressures too high but at least they would all be equal and the suspension would be doing it's job correctly.

Could it be this cradle training is the reason why skid pan training is not helping people learn?

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

One of the members of this forum aptly described how a skid cradle cannot respond accurately to all driver inputs.

I came up with what I call 'the ArmorAll trick' after noticing that, after I leave the car wash, I can't take a turn out at more than ten miles an hour for almost a mile or so, without doing an impression of Slidey McDriftersson.

Since I can't afford to soap an entire parking lot, I simply put several generous, sloppy coats of ArmorAll on my tires, and slide around the parking lot for about fifteen to twenty minutes at a time. Now, I can practice 'inclement weather' driving techniques whenever I like, even if it's 105°F outside!

I tend to believe the weightily accredited professionals when they say that insufficient practice time is the main issue - even when they don't believe what they're saying.
However, don't take this to mean that I find no fault with a skid cradle. Just because it isn't the reason, doesn't mean it isn't A reason.

Most drivers are most likely to slide when road and tire grip are both already compromised by a substance between them,so that's the most realistic way to prepare a skid pan; just pick your poison.

Tires that are most likely to slide are in fact bald, so that's the most realistic way to prepare the skid car. It's ironic that the likelihood of hydroplaning is inversely related to tire pressure, but 50psi won't make up for slicks, so there you go.

How wide should the tires be on a skid car? For example, the stock tires on my Caprice could be 215/75R15", 225/70R15", 225/75R15", 235/70R15", or 255/50R17", and I've personally witnessed Caprices wearing 255/65R15", and even 275/60R15". Personally, 235mm is as wide as I'll go.

(I do not truly know of which suspension package would be most likely to slide.)

The skid car should, however, be equipped with fully defeatable ABS, Traction Control, Stability Control, Roll Over Control, blah blah blah. Most, if not all these systems can temporarily abandon the driver, for example, when the brakes are too hot, and the driver should also know how to deal with that possibility, as well as learning how a car with alphabet soup will drive.
Or, in the alternative, you're still driving that oldie but goodie, with none of the above. Again, fully defeatable acronyms can't hurt.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

The real problem with a skid cradle, however, is that the instructor causes the skid, irrespective of the road conditions.

In real life, the vast majority of skids are caused in large part by the combination of a road condition, and driver input or inputs at the wrong place and/or time.

Put another way, the instructor can tell the driver, "Do this", which causes a certain type of skid. The student now has a kinaesthetic impression of the cause of a skid. The instructor goes out of his way to explain, step by step, how the likelihood of the skid was increased, moment by moment, until it occurred.

The instructor can then explain what the driver could've done to counter/mitigate the skid condition. (If the driver made the correct instinctive reaction, that kinaesthetic impression would also be explained in detail, so the driver can learn it faster.)

Finally, the instructor explains how to prevent/avoid that type of skid in the first place. The vast majority of the time, this involves different variations of late apex cornering techniques.

In the alternative of truly inclement weather, the instructor can explain how to drive effectively by accepting skids as unavoidable - there are places like this, you know.

By the end of the course - which probably needs to take place over at least four days - I'd bet that the vast majority of drivers will simply choose the most effective avoidance/prevention technique, which could be:

a) always coming into the turn a little slower than in normal weather
b) not combining braking or accelerating with turning
c) staying home

and they will be much less likely to skid in the future, knowing full well that they don't want to have to resort to any skid corrections. Hurray!

The minority of otherwise responsible drivers who find themselves 'enjoying' skidding, will receive the same warning as everyone else did from the instructors regarding how much additional space even a perfectly controlled four wheel drift requires compared to a normal turn, how little control margin is left when you are already sliding, and how they should come back for more training.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

(1) So, we're agreed that drivers will skid on icy roads until having gained the significant experience which you describe? and are more likely to pay the consequences? That this is more likely than not?
So, for this coming winter, what specific measures might we offer to drivers to uprate their roadsafety? (Not a rhetorical question)

(2) Pavement is the generic term used to describe roads, by Highways' Engineers and Meteorologists involved in roads' management. A few, strategically located sensors are buried in road-pavement per region of each road network under each County's control. That strategy is complemented and enhanced by infra-red detector readings made by from space-satellites showing the icing predicted for all road-pavement in each of those regions. This service is provided to Local Authorities and the Highways' Agency (n.b., two, completely separate bodies)by a centralised meteorological-bureau (private-business). The Finns are current leaders in the development and trialling of roadside infra-red detectors, with the aim of detection of 'black-ice' (seen as a significant threat separate to that of hoar-frost, water and freezing-water)

No drivers will not skid, they may at some point.
It is being ready for that that must be encouraged.
I DO believe skid control IS a very good way to do this. I understand the dangers of making drivers over confident but ....
The skid control that I speak of is in real cars, not 'spiders' they are 'real' skids enhanced by a deliberately slippery surface, often in old cars. A full half day or full day is given over to it.
many young drivers 'play' with skidding anyway, it is hardly like you can 'stop' them so better to have them taught properly and understand hat is going on, and taught in all basic areas than left to their own devices. Look at the upturn in 'drifting events'! Drivers want to learn (some anyway).
There are 'levels' of skid understanding, and the basics can be taught safely, to enhance drivers to be better prepared for real world conditions that they may meet.
Some skid control relates to understand the moment your car starts to loose grip. With FWD cars it is harder to 'feel' the tyre grip anyway with the engine torque going through the front wheels.
I accept that manufactures find it cheaper to produce cars this way, but the mechanic jaw drops when they open the bonnet (or boot) sometimes (hood or trunk).
People need confidence to drive well, encouraging that growing ability tends to feed to a greater learning, to deprive someone of that learning would be wrong IMHO. We are better knowing how to tackle something that not - good education is often the key.
I wish we were talking about how better all the skid courses could be made but without it being mandatory, it is just whether people decide to choose to learn more.
Car handling is also a part of this and often course do half track day half skid pan, which is a good idea too.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Some while since I posted anything to add to this topic...............but I can report a glimmer of support for my campaigning from the Highways Agency, who've invited me to a meeting. Seems they may use some of my suggestions to reword their 2009 leaflet (Winter Advice to Motorists). Not hoping for too much, but I hope that they may champion other aspects of my cause.........they were asked to contact me by/because I wrote to the Under Secretary of State @ Dept for Transport.

Meantime, one excellent publication which covers most aspects of winter weather risks & controls = www.sirwec.org/en/rwis_web_guide.pdf

Also, the agenda for an upcoming conference www.surveyorevents.com/coldcomfort. I'd like to draw your attention to the conference-programme, first day, mid-day topic 'The Public Perception of Winter Service'