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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 22:11 
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samandben wrote:
Sorry. I'll try to give as much info as I can.:

1)Daughter's prior knowledge of the road..................perhaps drove this road 2 to 3 times a year, mostly not during winter, to get to the motorway to drive long-distance. Licence-holder for 17 years. No prior collisions/accidents.




Being brutally honest. Mistakes and sh1t happens. Look at my own wife's tale of woe. Some.. including Claire . think she could have avoided. TRUTH? Pder inquest and police eye witness? Anyone " No one person in any lane could have worked out who took full impact at the time. No one person was "safe". Inquest established this .. and it helped us ,. really helped us come to terms and then fight for our rights.

My wife and I: fell down the black hole big time at the time all the same. You can only push up to surface properly when you touch the rock botton. We did. You and yours have. You can only face the future with a fixed grin and a "Stinkfinger" held up to life at these points.



sa,and ben wrote:

2)I think that this her first experience of skidding and travelling in very cold conditions


She froze. Understandable. She must not worry over past .. she has to look to her positive future. You can HELP her do so by simply being there. listening to her. nor judging her .when she angrily blame herself? :shock:

Been there mate.

Quote:
3)Dry, clear for the majority of the 20+ mile journey. No prior indicators of risk. Dawn. Sunny/ "lovely morning" conditions later in the journey. Came round a long bend and had about a 5 second warning of a change signified by an extraordinarily "wet looking" road surface. Decision was, don't know what that is so proceed at slowing speed. Steering wheel violently wrested from hands as hit the edge of the 'wet' surface and not strong enough to bring the wheel back. Said to other occupants "we'll be OK." Seemingly slow spinning skid. Car left the road backwards down into a ditch after hitting verge-gravel, and heading downhill towards fields below. Car stopped violently as it's boot smashed into a young tree.


Worst type. I have read the thread. Wildy and IG covered the sunny "trompe l'oeil"

NOT her fault. PLEASE PLEASE re-assure her,. :) She needs this reassurance.

Quote:

4)Travelling @ between 50 & 60 mph.
5)Major A road, salted routinely as it is a major route. Road salted once, the previous afternoon.
6) No rain. Air temperature @ 0 to 2C, having dropped from 8C in the preceding 5 days. No rain over the same period. Relative Humidity on rapid increase from previous week's low=very low at journey start (71deg) into 84deg 15 miles further on from the crash site. Road surface temperature minus 3C to minus 4C (readings from embedded detectors some miles either side of/ and at lower altitude than, the crash site), dropping rapidly over the preceding week from a December high of 9C


Hell / see Wildy's post above.

She's trying to help with fact.

You describe what my wife said. This causes black ice glaze/

Quote:
7) Emergency personnel slipping and falling over at the scene. Emergency vehicles skidding.
8) Crash site is at the highest, moorland point of the 30+mile long road. Sheltered to the South by high trees and to the North by banking.
9) Winter tyres not fitted. Car a 1990 saloon without frost-warning system. Full tank/ heavy with fuel.

Please ask me for more specific info if it will help



hell . you describe classic macor climate cold spots here,

Sam. Your girl hit the horror, I fully understand ALL you and yours go through and you have my full respect for tyring to make sense of it all. You are one brave man who deserves full respect by all here.

We may not provide the answers . but we try to help and give you comfort too.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 23:11 
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The "tear off slip" idea explained.

When DVLA send you a reminder to tax your vehicle, you then have to provide a current MOT certificate, insurance certificate and a means of payment - either by cheque, or credit card, in a Post Office, or online.

At any one of these means of payment, there could be a means of indicating that you accept responsibility for reading their information. A tear off slip to be enclosed, or a box to tick.

Read the information? Yes? then box ticked. No? then read it NOW. Job done.
This would have to be a joint effort from the DfT and the DVLA.

What prompted my thoughts on this, was the introduction of variable speed limits on the M40.
Some friends from northern Scotland were going on holiday when they encountered them for the first time, and had NO IDEA what it was all about.
They simply had not read the current Highway Code, or seen any information on the overhead gantries, and the manner in which you had to obey the signs above each lane.

For some time, they had been living in a little Utopia north of Inverness, without ever having to deal with these things - and I thought then that drivers are often unaware of changes in legislation etc. because they simply see a brief announcement somewhere, then forget it because at that time, it does not apply to them.
For most of the year, even I have no idea what takes place on the M25. Don't need to, as I don't go there - but when I do, at least I know where and what to look for, or I can ask fellow Safespeeders.

For those less informed there could be - the Road Tax reminder leaflet drop - for ANY important information.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 00:24 
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samandben wrote:
Thank you, Ernest.

I would strongly support the participative approach in your ...... 'simple tear off slip....'confirm that the recipient HAS read the information enclosed'

That engages the driving public and is much closer to getting them to see that their responsibilities cannot be passed off to others. Anything more passive than that I'm not sure about.

What do you think about the chances that such a suggestion would be seriously considered, and by which agency, please?

Also, could I ask you for your experiences of icy-road incidents, please (my earlier posting, today)?

I am 51, and passed my test when I was 17. However, for 6 or 7 years I rode a motorcycle - which sharpens the senses to anything slippery!
My first "off" was on black ice - a little lane I used regularly. I was not cold - I was wrapped up against the cold, and I saw a "damp patch" ahead. As I rode over it, suddenly the Honda 50 was no longer beneath me... and I was pitched onto the road. Speed approximately 20 mph.
No real damage to speak of - aside from bruising to my leg, ribs and pride.

I was working on a caravan site which had a huge concrete area, which was cleared of caravans in Winter while the site was closed. One weekend, my brother and I thought it would be a good idea to make an ice rink - so over several nights we upended dustbin fulls of water from a beck onto the concrete, and each night it froze - thicker and thicker.
One afternoon, we drove onto it on two of the site's tractors - and even at low speeds, once on the ice, there was no stopping them - touch the brake, and they started to pirouette! However, we stopped when I ran out of ice while going sideways, and got up onto two wheels, nearly overturning the tractor.

We then drove on in a car - and over several hours, practiced handling the car, trying to get it to travel in the direction we wished it to go - even if it was actually travelling sideways, but it was simply TOO slippery. Anything you pitched onto the ice simply travelled in that direction - all you could do was point it in different angles but always travelling in the same direction - and that is the problem with black ice too.

It is either a case of what you do when the ice finishes - hoping that you can rescue the control after the skid, OR hoping that the ice is not so thick as to remove all control, which might be regained to a limited extent, if some of the road surface protrudes through the icy coating.
That is more likely to happen if there is less momentum.

My experience (gained on motorcycles) tells me ALWAYS err on the side of caution, and when cornering, never be over confident when something hard/sharp/heavy is in the line you will take if you lose grip.

Always slow at the brow of a hill, so as to not carry any more speed into the downward part than you can control.

Always assume that a damp patch in cold weather IS ice, not simply water.

East/West roads in or under trees are more prone to damp and icing, as they do not get as much sun.
Look at the street early on a frosty sunny morning, and you will see that the shadows are often white - to the extent that you can make out silhouettes of trees and street furniture!

Accident outcomes are the result of chains of circumstances - two identical situations can result in two widely differing outcomes if just one factor is varied.
e.g. skid across a road when nothing is coming and there is a wide verge - (possibly) no problem.
Skid across the same road when an oncoming vehicle is a fully laden articulated lorry, and the result could be mayhem.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 13:12 
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Ok Folks, I REALLY DO :clap: appreciate your responses since I posted the summary of my Daughter's smash. She is an inspiration....e.g., telling us, while lying in Intensive Care 4 hours after the smash, "We're a strong family unit, so this thing's happened, nothing can change it so let's work together to make the best of it"! 5 months ago, her spine was severed, now she's 'back-to-work' as she's now able to transfer from bed to wheelchair, from wheelchair to car!

I'll take time to respond to each of you, THANK YOU :clap: , but now think that I should provide info which I got from a simple search on the Internet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/gla ... 844476.stm
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/news/Icy-d ... ticle.html
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/new ... olicy.html
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/sw/Black- ... ticle.html
http://www.communitynewsgroup.co.uk/sea ... ice_smash/
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top- ... -22585787/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ice.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... blast.html

I'm convinced that for each accident reported, there are likely to be lots more unreported (NB, also, I'm told that police do not record non-injury collisions. So, official stats probably won't record the majority of accidents). Plus, it's believed that the stats would show 3 fatalities from my Daughter's crash....had it not have been for the tree which stopped the car.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 20:59 
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‘Look at my own wife's tale of woe’………..sorry, I haven’t heard about that. What happened, please?

Some.. including Claire think she could have avoided……..I believe that all opinions are worthy, but agree that the some of the threads seem to have supported my opinion that drivers encountering unexpected ice will not be able to control their destiny. Sorry if that polarises opinions here. I need help to concentrate upon getting support for in-journey participation of the traffic-police. Stark warnings, highly illuminated, on the roadside, on the day.

‘Inquest established this’……..in which country was the inquest held, please?

Hey, your sentiments, encouragement and comfort really help....THANK YOU :clap:


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 21:12 
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...either by cheque, or credit card, in a Post Office, or online.

At any one of these means of payment, there could be a means of indicating that you accept responsibility for reading their information. A tear off slip to be enclosed, or a box to tick.........

PLEASE don't let this idea slip away, or get lost in the other detail. It, or similar, is fundamental as action to challenge and change the sorts of surprisingly strong views :shock: expressed about drivers' ignorance here>>>>>http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21296&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=2f754242506e2c211b9f8e3725171569 These folks are experts in highways' treatment and policing.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 03:22 
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http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21296&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=2f754242506e2c211b9f8e3725171569
Have repeated the link from samandben's post to make it clickable

I have spent time looking into gritting.
Early this year in Cumbria, we had an unusual circumstance with our weather which resulted in pavements and roads becoming treacherously icy, and our council came in for much criticism.

I found myself defending them, because the gritting of roads has many implications on several levels.

Firstly, the expense - the grit itself is the least of this - the manpower required to apply the salt - often in the early hours can involve councils in huge expense, and council funding often does not allow for this.

Secondly there remains the problem of physics. If you grit - then it rains, the water will wash away the salt - then if it freezes, you have to be able to apply the grit AFTER the point at which the water run off will not take the salt with it - but before it freezes. It obviously takes time to access all the miles of roads, so at some point some roads remain untreated.

Thirdly, salt is only effective down to a certain temperature.

Finally there is the environmental aspect of placing tons of salt into drains and surface run off.

Cumbria's problems this year arose from a spell of repeated snowing, freezing and thawing over two days and nights, with snow layers which fell on treated surfaces, melted, then froze heavily. There was little the council could have done to alleviate the problem on any but a few roads, as they have to prioritise busy routes - and in this instance this meant re-gritting CERTAIN roads constantly, instead of moving on to lesser used routes.

In the yard outside my works, the efforts of myself and my neighbours were of little effect, and after three days, we had to CHISEL the ice from the surfaces, as it was so well affixed that salt could not penetrate it.

So how do they cope abroad?
Well on the continent, they more often than not experience colder DRIER weather. In Scandanavia, they sometimes drive ON the ice with studded tyres - and they do not suffer the SMOOTH ice as a result of thawing and freezing.
In some parts of New Zealand they put SAND on the ice and drive ON IT rather than attempt to melt it.
Unfortunately our climate would render most of the options above useless. Sand and studded tyres only work if the ice remains deeply frozen for long periods.

Gritting roads by the most quick and efficient means, relies on other vehicles driving on the grit to crush the grains of salt and spread them over the road surface. For this reason, gritting in the middle of the night can be counter productive - in the morning rush hour, patches of ice remain in between areas thick with grit.
Even when it DOES work, it does not last. Look to see how dust and litter accumulate at the centre and margins of the road when it is being driven on constantly - the same thing happens to the salt on the road - it liquefies, then is splashed to the margins, slowly reducing the effectiveness on the driven areas.

I don't ever foresee a time when the budget and economy of most councils could ever support a 100% effective solution to either removing the hazard, or even being able to warn of 100% of the areas affected.
I believe the answer is in a combination of treatment of the most vulnerable areas, and driver education.

However with the number of drivers on the road already who do NOT have sufficient information and training, it will be an uphill struggle for some time - hampered by those drivers who fail to see the need to improve their skills, and who choose to ignore advice.

I feel that the government led drive to portray speeding above posted limits, as a huge issue which masks the pursuit of a proper road safety policy - and this is supported in some areas such as Swindon, who have withdrawn their support for the speed camera program in pursuit of other avenues.

I hope that in the future more is done in a similar vein by other councils, because the Governments position is too well entrenched for them to back down without a lengthy face saving exercise. :(

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 04:33 
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I have spent time in Norway visiting during the winter. Although they do use studded tyres during the winter period I did notice (as Ernest says) they do quite a bit of damage to the roads. The UK’s roads are bad enough and I think our Councils would be even less able to cope with the extra damage.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 02:16 
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I may be mistaken, but isn't it illegal to use fully studded tyres in the UK?

I have a pair of Pirelli Centurato's ON WHEELS for a Cortina which are virtually unused, and fully studded.
I never sold them in case they were not legal for road use here! They came from Norway when my parents holidayed there one winter.
Temperature was -32° C while they were there, and they reported that the ice was so dry, it had better grip than gravelled paths.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 07:55 
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http://www.karacare.co.uk/tyres.html

http://www.etyres.co.uk/uk-tyre-law


Studded tyres legal if used correctly :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 07:57 
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samandben wrote:
‘Look at my own wife's tale of woe’………..sorry, I haven’t heard about that. What happened, please?


It's been well documented on this forum and on one other "motoring" one. :(

Wildy pulled up with text book tarmac/tyres in L2 in a wave/brake situation. Police vehicle warning traffic of the jam was on the Hard Shoulder. Lorries in L1. Similar queue in L3.. but L2 was apparently "moving" a bit per all the same.

Road clear behind them .. apart from one car weaving around and increasing speed. Could have hit any. Hit my wife at full impact at increasing speed. Was nasty. She was in hospital for a long time :cry: :cry: Very nearly lost her. But ...took a lot of patience and effort on her part to recover - with the help of entire family. :bow:

Quote:
Some.. including Claire think she could have avoided……..I believe that all opinions are worthy, but agree that the some of the threads seem to have supported my opinion that drivers encountering unexpected ice will not be able to control their destiny. Sorry if that polarises opinions here. I need help to concentrate upon getting support for in-journey participation of the traffic-police. Stark warnings, highly illuminated, on the roadside, on the day.


I would agree that we need a mix of information .. warning but also much better training for all drivers. All three of our eldest - aged 21 and 19 (twins) have Skid Pan and RoSPA under their belts.

We need to be aware of the dangers and understand perhaps where we may encounter it. Some roads around here are known to locals as "potentially treacherous in cold snaps". I think such roads would benefit from some signage on that basis :? :?

Quote:
‘Inquest established this’……..in which country was the inquest held, please?

Hey, your sentiments, encouragement and comfort really help....THANK YOU :clap:



Accident and inquest into the other driver's death - plus our insurance battle - UK.

Pleased to help and reassure. Your daughter sounds a very courageous lass and you are right to be proud of her. Encourage her by telling her that plenty others think so too.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 14:20 
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Thanks Ernest.

I would like to respond gently (although the written word makes this difficult) to your posting about salting

Firstly, the expense - the grit itself is the least of this - the manpower required to apply the salt - often in the early hours can involve councils in huge expense, and council funding often does not allow for


Yes, costs are probably high, but return upon that investment, IMO, will be judiciously calculated. However, this I will retain this aspect as something high on my list of things to accurately review, calculate and summarise. See, again IMO, there are ‘win-wins’ for all hidden in such reviews. I understand that high cost (to local economy) of road-closure, road-pavement protection, £s cost of death and serious-injury, , and successful high-court actions by sufferers are the prime reasons for salting. Without it, IMO there would be carnage

Secondly there remains the problem of physics. If you grit - then it rains, the water will wash away the salt - then if it freezes, you have to be able to apply the grit AFTER the point at which the water run off will not take the salt with it - but before it freezes. It obviously takes time to access all the miles of roads, so at some point some roads remain untreated.

One of the biggest, current challenges to those responsible for meeting the Act’s requirements. However, that’s a well understood basic, and underpins my Council’s Winter service Plan (and those of other Councils and Highways’ authorities). Certainly, central government is investing a lot of taxpayers’ money in R&D @Transport Research Laboratory, in projects aimed at that limitation. However, may I ask for a focus upon those icy-conditions which cannot be seen by the driver as you say…… treatment of the most vulnerable areas……. as I strongly believe that these are well-known. Also, that the climatic properties that precede such conditions are well-known and provide another, tangible challenge.
After all, if one reviews the climatic conditions preceding my daughter’s smash, there was no rain, nor snow. I will add that there was a stiff breeze, which IMO must have moved and dried residual salt.

relies on other vehicles driving on the grit to crush the grains of salt and spread them over the road surface

I’ve a positive response from a senior @ Transport Research Laboratory, to my first and easily conceived idea. His job is to attend court as witness to roadsmash cases and as european expert on road-crash investigation. He’s a meteorologist. My idea? To overcome this basic limitation, use towed trailers, The trailers would be towed by the salting-lorry and crush pre-wetted salt into the tarmac at tyre-line. So, I don’t subscribe to the view that overnight salting cannot be made effective. Perhaps more ideas……..?

Please keep posting guys


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 17:09 
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The trailers would need a wide roller, not just tyres which would miss the majority of scattered salt.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 20:24 
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samandben wrote:
Thanks Ernest.

I would like to respond gently (although the written word makes this difficult) to your posting about salting

Firstly, the expense - the grit itself is the least of this - the manpower required to apply the salt - often in the early hours can involve councils in huge expense, and council funding often does not allow for


But all the councils gritted and even over-gritted in a couple of cases? We also find they have included molasses in the mix as well (why cars were filthy in January :roll:) I do not know how beneficial the molasses are, I assume included to help the grit stick on the road? :scratchchin:



Quote:

Yes, costs are probably high, but return upon that investment, IMO, will be judiciously calculated. However, this I will retain this aspect as something high on my list of things to accurately review, calculate and summarise. See, again IMO, there are ‘win-wins’ for all hidden in such reviews. I understand that high cost (to local economy) of road-closure, road-pavement protection, £s cost of death and serious-injury, , and successful high-court actions by sufferers are the prime reasons for salting. Without it, IMO there would be carnage


Gritting is important. Wildy :neko: is perhaps better able than me to reply as she''s sitting on some stats from her homeland - digesting them still before launching off at warp speed "rentamiaow" pace .. :popcorn: It seems Swiss experimented with road surfaces - especially on motorways and high alpine routes. They mixed glass into the tarmac. You may notices that the road twinkles in the sunlight and headlamps as a result :wink: The Swiss think it gave a better grip .. prevented accidents and the slighter coarser surface prevented ice/black ice to form. I note IG has mentioned Durham are resurfacing with "anti-skid material at key points" It will be interesting to see how this affects their statistics (which are consistently lower than the national average :bow:)


Quote:

Secondly there remains the problem of physics. If you grit - then it rains, the water will wash away the salt - then if it freezes, you have to be able to apply the grit AFTER the point at which the water run off will not take the salt with it - but before it freezes. It obviously takes time to access all the miles of roads, so at some point some roads remain untreated.

One of the biggest, current challenges to those responsible for meeting the Act’s requirements. However, that’s a well understood basic, and underpins my Council’s Winter service Plan (and those of other Councils and Highways’ authorities). Certainly, central government is investing a lot of taxpayers’ money in R&D @Transport Research Laboratory, in projects aimed at that limitation. However, may I ask for a focus upon those icy-conditions which cannot be seen by the driver as you say…… treatment of the most vulnerable areas……. as I strongly believe that these are well-known. Also, that the climatic properties that precede such conditions are well-known and provide another, tangible challenge.
After all, if one reviews the climatic conditions preceding my daughter’s smash, there was no rain, nor snow. I will add that there was a stiff breeze, which IMO must have moved and dried residual salt.


Not necessarily as this grit has sticky molasses to prevent. Air would have been damp.. condensation where warmer air meets cold snap. Causing condensation and a glaze. :roll:


Quote:
relies on other vehicles driving on the grit to crush the grains of salt and spread them over the road surface

I’ve a positive response from a senior @ Transport Research Laboratory, to my first and easily conceived idea. His job is to attend court as witness to roadsmash cases and as european expert on road-crash investigation. He’s a meteorologist. My idea? To overcome this basic limitation, use towed trailers, The trailers would be towed by the salting-lorry and crush pre-wetted salt into the tarmac at tyre-line. So, I don’t subscribe to the view that overnight salting cannot be made effective. Perhaps more ideas……..?

Please keep posting guys



We have to grit regularly but not overdo it. Grit may thaw but if we have a rain shower and temperatures lower drastically . then we have BLACK ICE as result of grit melting the snow here. :yikes: When it evaporates and a deep cold front comes in .. black ice!

Wildy says to look at your car. If ice on mirrors ... icicles on trees.. then black ice will be in shady areas .. and she may gentlly wiggle or tap the brakes to "get a feel through the steering wheel!

Black ice is not easy to see until you hit it.

I do feel for you sam and ben. Your daughter? Same type as my own wife and you have the rare diamond type within her. Tough but beautiful inside and out. :bow: Priceless personalities. :bow:

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 20:24 
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Hi Sam and Ben.

I think the young Swiss :neko: can answer better because of growing up in a high alpine region (though Appenzell does not have the famous "peaks") I gather they mix glass into their tarmac which gives a rough surface - but one which reduces ice patches to form. :popcorn: She has some statistics dating from 2001 to present day and is trying to collate them as I understand into some format we can all understand. (She says she can simply paste 'em - but they are all in German/French/Italian/Romansch languages per the tabs on the web site she's found. :roll: :( She says it will take her some time to download and then translate properly :listenup: (USING A SPELL CHECKER) to demonstrate

wild feline in excited voice on telephone wrote:
"she ist in serious mode here!"


Black ice> We need to inform all road users it can occur if temps are at or just above freezing.

:roll: Bridges freeze first. Sun thaws . shades stay icey and lethal. We need folk out there to know this :roll:

We are back to COAST though and taking in all observed information all the same. Ice on tree branches. on mirrors/windscreens? You may find white and black ice out there.

Grit? We can have a serious danger on high ground whereby the grit melts the snow and a cold front settles - causing black ice to glaze over this. :roll: A


There will be some tell tale signs of the deep cold on the trees/hedgegrows/ the rubber on your wiper blades or the icing up of the washer outlets as soon as you hit the squirt button :popcorn:

All of these can alert to the danger of black ice. Few are aware. We were not as aware of this as we should have been at the time of the Rhyl tragedy. We are now and we are now advising folk about this.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 20:29 
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PS .. Wildy has popped her head over my shoulders and asked me to give you her love and she'll get back to you later with her stats and stuff from Swiss Alps.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:15 
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Fantastic support and responses, everyone. Thank you doesn't really say enough.

What can I do in return, please?

How may we get the message to more people?

What do I need to do next?


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:48 
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Jim Fitzpatrick is the road safety minister:

jim.fitzpatrick@dft.gsi.gov.uk

Could try campaigning to him. Copy your local MP in too.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 14:33 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Jim Fitzpatrick is the road safety minister:

jim.fitzpatrick@dft.gsi.gov.uk

Could try campaigning to him. Copy your local MP in too.



What is the best way to go about such a campaign, please?


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 18:55 
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I'll be completely honest, I've only skim-read the thread (short attention span).

I suggest drafting an email to mister F saying:

1. Your family experience
2. What's wrong with the present system
3. What you think needs to be done

He (or someone in his office) will reply. Keep pestering him if necessary.


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