Safe Speed Forums

agree with Johnny. Lobby local councillors. Knock oh their doors. My sisters found this to be very effective when lobbying against a proposed congestion charge for Manchester. They got the Blue Badge discount in place in case they lost by doing this to both of them.

Next .. lobby your local MP .. then the Junior Ministers. then Mr F and even the PM.


Write letters to local press. Try to reach local radio as well. Get local and on-line petitions set up. Knock on doors to get signatures to your petition. Again .. this proved effective as regards the MART campaign ... but my sisters have the same roguish family smiles as me .. especially Jan-Jan . But be prepared to give up a weekend for this. It takes time to do this.

You can drum up support in local town centres too for signing of your petition Get local shops to put up posters/hosyour campaign/petitioning.

Err.. cannot think of much else on the "hands on front" .. but again we hope to help you here..

We support fully in making sure folk out there are informed.. educated .. to identify and use learned skills to regain control and return to safety as result.

Hope I help? We all try to.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

OK I can understand this may have been her first skid, and sadly I can see that little or no encouragement is dished out to promote skid pan training.
Do I understand you correctly that you are saying that this was the first time she has traveled in very cold conditions in 17 years of holding a license ? Has she been driving all those 17 years? Is her driving always in town and this was a once in a blue moon out of urban drive ?
Hang on ... you have already said it was 'very cold' there must have been signs of that ? These indicators are very important, these facts tell a driver, so much about conditions and potential conditions.
5 seconds is a long time. A bend - right or left hill or totally flat ? Was her spin was in the line of travel ('R' bend) momentum playing a part too.
*IF* she came off the gas too quickly and I am getting suspicious, that can throw her into a spin .......
Well she doesn't sound like she was on ice then .... on ice (as already mentioned) you can turn the wheel as the steering goes light.
She didn't by ANY chance - and bearing in mind your following too, hit the throttle ? MANY MANY people accidentally hit the throttle. THAT might well drive the car, and even induce a sharp skid which can be neigh impossible to steer out of - AS you describe ...
OR if she cam OFF TOO suddenly that to (with some steering on - corner mentioned) can cause a skid too.
Unable to turn the wheel, generally means that the car has friction i.e. tarmac not ice.
Can she recall if this was like being driven - going quickly ? was the 'whole' process a slowing process or all 'at speed'?
Which verge did she go off - the inside of the bend or the outside of the bend ? Which was R or L bend ?
I thought she was slowing for a problem ? Or had she not slowed ? Any problem I would expect a huge drop in speed, to 20 maybe ...?
If a major route was it a trunk route ? Have you checked to see if they did not grit earlier that day ? Seems strange if only gritted the day before esp for a major A road.
If there is a drop in temperature then mist forms and potential ice. All drivers should know that ALL elevated sections, even JUST a humped backed bridge etc, open exposed roads, shadow areas can ALL be a diff temp and so prone to ice / damp / leaves etc etc and be more dangerous. It is sad that the UK driving culture is loosing this valuable info and it is not being passed on as a matter of course from generation to generation. The temp drops 3deg with every 1000ft too ... not allowing for wind chill factors....
OK. I wonder if it was the ah forget it name but there was a 'grit' used that was incredibly slippery and extremely dangerous .... that was down south ... and they insisted on using it for a LONG time - Paul had a thread about it a while back now - appalling.
Cold potential icy conditions ? A hill, moorland, a bend, trees, bank ! This 'set' has ALL the hall marks of potential trouble ! But you say, she says, she was going 50mph, oh dear
Size of tyres ? Tyre pressures - front & back ? Front or Rear wheel drive ? (FWD or RWD) or 4WD ? (etc) ?


On the leaflet side - the DVLA do already send some info - they can cover winter driving already. I DO agree much more needs to be done to guide and educate and a LOT more research needs to be carried out, to learn 'best practices'.
I do worry that trying to concentrate on tear off slips will not work, it is education and regular reminders that help get messages across - trick is 7 times ... then it 'get's through in varying degrees. It is about real world end result learning and understanding, but most of the info is IN the Highway Code already - it is just so big now that most never read it.
Then of course there is ROSPA, driving centers that can help to teach more skills and better driving methods too. ....
Insurance Companies should be encouraging better driving preparation too as an incentive even if the Gov aren't !

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

If the "tear-off slip" thing ends up being anything like the "accept" button that you click to say you've read the licence conditions when installing some software, I'm not sure it will work. I don't know many people who bother to read through and digest the licence terms when installing a piece of software!

Hi SafeSpeedv2.

Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge the advice that's come from this thread about driver-training. I agree that there isn't a substitute. Just need to include, in that training, some specifics about ice and where, how, why and when it lurks.

I'll try to get more detail from my Daughter to answer some of your questions more thoroughly but, as you'll appreciate, I'll have to be careful how and when I try.

……' Has she been driving all those 17 years? Yes. Thinking about it, she has extra-urban, daily driving experience in the early years of her driving, and must have driven during very cold weather. Also, she has driven recovery lorries when accompanying her husband on long distances at night

Is her driving always in town and this was a once in a blue moon out of urban drive ? Pretty much always drives in town. Perhaps drove the full length of the road where the smash occurred, 6 to 9 times in the last 3 years


Hang on ... you have already said it was 'very cold' there must have been signs of that ? There was soft ice, easily removed from the windscreen just before setting off. As said, weather station records showed Air temperature @ 0 to 2C, and we knew that it was cold outside. I aim to find out if there were any media-warnings to drivers prior to the journey. My wife (passenger) said that there were no indications of icy conditions during the journey. She's frightened about car travel (since being in our car which was knocked into a ditch on the M1) and insists that she would have called a halt to the journey had she have been concerned.

A bend - right or left hill or totally flat ? Was her spin was in the line of travel ('R' bend) momentum playing a part too. Left hand, long, smooth bend. Up a slow, but not steep, rise. Road camber's noticably lowest on her side. Need to ask again about the direction the car span in

*IF* she came off the gas too quickly and I am getting suspicious, that can throw her into a spin ....... Didn't know that! Why does that happen, please?

Well she doesn't sound like she was on ice then .... on ice/ Unable to turn the wheel, generally means that the car has friction i.e. tarmac not ice Agree. Been trying to figure out what snatched the wheel away. Police-report said black-ice caused the accident. I reckon that the car hit melted ice+surface water first..... gained grip, lost grip. The front wheels went their own way (left) and induced the counter-clockwise spin due to car momentum. Or, she did react initially turning into the skid at it's start, and the tyres gripped through molten ice..........all conjecture from me

OR if she cam OFF TOO suddenly that to (with some steering on - corner mentioned) can cause a skid too.. Didn't know that! Why does that happen, please?

[Can she recall if this was like being driven - going quickly ? was the 'whole' process a slowing process or all 'at speed'? Just describes it as a smooth, round and round sensation

Which verge did she go off - the inside of the bend or the outside of the bend ? Which was R or L bend ? Ran backwards down the nearside/ left verge. The inside of the bend.

Travelling @ between 50 & 60 mph. I thought she was slowing for a problem ? Or had she not slowed ? This was her speed for the journey up to the point when they
saw the 'wet' road-surface.
Any problem I would expect a huge drop in speed, to 20 maybe Within the last 5 seconds prior to hitting the 'wet' looking surface the decision was, don't know what that is so proceed at slowing speed.

If a major route was it a trunk route ? 'Detrunked' in 2002. Major A road
Have you checked to see if they did not grit earlier that day ? I have the Council's records.....a single salting for in the afternoon of each of the 2 days preceding the smash and then same for the 4 consec. days following.
Seems strange if only gritted the day before esp for a major A road. Why is that strange, please?

If there is a drop in temperature then mist forms and potential ice. Is this documented, please? If yes can you refer me, please?
All drivers should know....it is sad that the UK driving culture is loosing this valuable info ......not being passed on as a matter of course from generation to generation. This, for me, is the most important issue. Is it passed on formally, eg which section of the Highway Code, please? Only my scientific training made me aware of the shading effect and then only during my research since thee accident!
The temp drops 3deg with every 1000ft too ... not allowing for wind chill factors.... Road temperature detectors were at locations lower than the smash location. Also, please note the 3 to 5C difference between the air temperatures and Road temperatures.......that's 3 to 5 degrees LOWER.

...a 'grit' used that was incredibly slippery and extremely dangerous .... ...Paul had a thread about it a while back now Is it possible that I can find/read the thread, please?

Cold potential icy conditions ? A hill, moorland, a bend, trees, bank ! ........ she was going 50mph, oh dear Yes, that sort of speed, without incident, for 20+ miles, but completely inappropriate for that isolated, extraordinary stretch of perhaps 300 metres. As above, IMO, we're back at the crux of this subject . Sorry for being pedantic, but could you point me at the part(s) of the Highway Code which warns/ advises about such micro-environments, please?

I agree that we need to include this within the training of all new drivers. It's all very well for me to mention "macro-climate" - but some may not know what I mean. n I would like to think that more do by reading safespeed over since 2 March 2004 when Paul started this message board as I know we old hands have always discussed it.. been prepared to learn more and even revise older posts because of acquired knowledge., via ALL posters to this board




I understand. She will be a mix of innocent victim - moving to self blame . guilt . denial . anger .. at one and the same time. All very normal and all too humanly natural. The even went through this - and it's more to do with their seeing how nearest and dearest suffer from coping with their injury/situation . Very important to make sure your loved one learns and has your OBJECTIVE but still caring support - so how it happened.. liable or innocent victim.


I wish you would just quote Claire or whoever instead of coloured font... but so long as all and browsers can follow our conversation - I suppose it does not matter that much

[iNo disrespect intended .. it's just "me" trying to decipher who said what as I've hit the "quote" button to remind and reply to each button point.




But each cold snap? Maybe lucky. Not everyone meets "black ice". My own wife has never driven over black ice to date but I make sure she has a skid pan experience twice per year all the same. Just so that she can keep her acquired control skill by practice.



All skills - you use or lose! I know the Mad Cats have posted such comments as well.



In which case .. not really conversant with macro-climate at this site.




Thaw setting in but still cold + BLACK ICE JUST MIGHT BE OUT THERE!

d, weather station records showed Air temperature @ 0 to 2C, and we knew that it was cold outside. I aim to find out if there were any media-warnings to drivers prior to the journey. My wife (passenger) said that there were no indications of icy conditions during the journey. She's frightened about car travel (since being in our car which was knocked into a ditch on the M1) and insists that she would have called a halt to the journey had she have been concerned.
[/quote]


Most local and national stations advise on this. I know our area sometimes adds a stress to the warnings if really bad - even adivsing NOT to ttravel unless absolutely necessary.


( the stuff which dubs us as "ninny nanny ninny"




Ask her and re-read the police accident reports too, We test forensically here. I know the other 42 Forces do likewise sam/ben. Speak to the officer in charge of the accident investigation team. We do take full details and submit some files to TrL for futher road safety development in many a situation




Lost control can occur in same but not necessarily all circumstances . NOT her fault. She may not have been aware of need to be in complete control and steering into situation


I am not giving answer based on own training. I want folk to debate . work it through here I will comment on the repliies and compare./contrast to official good practice.



Water? did she aquaplane here? Hit something else .. or simply lock the wheels up .. but not actually realise this?


I am also speculating here" But if she's up to it . ask her tactfuly.



Yank the steering wheen harshly? I can get a skid in normal conditions if I realy want to . We don't but have words with those whodo




DSA Driving standards. Road craft CYCLE CRAFT RIAD CRAFT add to HC and are MUST READS anyway.

\read the weater .;road . YOU CAN YOU KNOW!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Will comment on other points in due course.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Thank you, especially for the advice about further read/ contact with police. Are you a policeman, then? What's the best way to approach that officer, do you think? Without reservation? In a particular way? I'm cautious about raising suspicions as to my motives. Motives aren't litigation-intent, but my Daughter may eventually wish to proceed that way.....separately.

NB, Please be reassured that I'm not finding it difficult to separate my researches and safety-concerns from the litigatory path. Please challenge if you're suspicious. But I think I have everyones trust in the Forum?

For me, I need to concentrate upon getting some attention to hidden/ blackice from the highway-technicians at Council. My researches convince me that it CAN be better controlled. Do you agree, and in what ways?

May I ask you to contribute to my Thread in the 'Brainstorming' Forum, please?

I'll take the risk and try to use the quotes facility in future postings....sorry for the frustration

Hi Sam and Ben. I have sent pm to you.


I think you have every right to lobby your council. Might I suggest you lobby the councillors who can ask the hard questions at Council meetings on your behalf?

Not really off topic as you have asked how to set about your quest for improvements.. but I will put in small anyway

I know it can work because the Mad Doc's sisters were the ones who asked a question of one council party leader - and this led to the disabled concession/hospital/clinic concession from the then proposed Manchester area toll tax - which they secured in case they lost the referendum. to Jazzy and Ju-Ju, Geoffrey, Sean, Stuart and the rest of the MART team as I think they are due some more public credit. As it happens - Manchester has secured some other funding to imporve its public transport facilities per my understanding from the "thisis manchester" website. I take an interest as I used to be with GMP and my younger brother and sister serve with GMP too. My own eldest son is set to join GMP in August as well as he passed his Sergeant's exams and has a transfer to a suitable vacancy..

But as said in my pm - do contact the Inspector in charge of the RPU of the force dealing with this. Get your daughter to give her consent to act on her behalf as insurers should also have copy of all reports as part of her initial claim for a damaged car/personal and third party injuries (your wife/her mother)

Hope it all works out for you and yours. Give your daughter and wife a virtual hug and only good wishes for their future from me anyway.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

If the accident happened locally to yourself, then you should enlist the help of your local Parish Council as a first step. You can ask for 5 minutes to present your case at the council meeting.

Once you have their support, it makes things easier to proceed to a higher council - district or county, as each has representatives on the parish councils.

Your MP should also be enlisted - especially given the current climate and forthcoming election. He should communicate your concerns to the appropriate government minister/department.
Use the "they work for you" web site to look through members interests, and see if any have already shown interest in your subject, and include them by copying any correspondence to them.

Local press can be helpful, but if not, there is always the letters page. Check to see if one particular journalist handles motoring issues, and contact them direct. Use the internet to check in with TV via Fith Gear or Watchdog, and see if they are looking for stories to cover.

I'll leave others to describe the best way to contact the police, and see if they have concerns which might add weight to your campaign.
Sorry I have not been more help, but I have one or two family issues to deal with at present, which are taking up my time.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thank you for answering my questions.
We aim to please or try to ! Thank you, there are some really excellent people around here.
We believe in intelligent research and guidance for all areas of Road Safety. The promotion of education, and encouragement of driver / road user responsibility, is very important for individuals achieving better road safety for themselves. Each journey that we undertake, helps us to build up important experiences that we can try to learn from.

But we have established that there were indications they were just not considered. Equally if there are media or other notifications, unless they are well known about, and people actually refer to them, there is no point to them existing !

It is only the responsibility of the driver to assess a road and conditions, if a passenger observers something, then they should of course inform the driver, for them to deal with it appropriately. There are many things that can be done to help scared passengers (for another topic).
Did your daughter check any of the weather stations or the media, for any updates that you mentioned earlier ?
[/quote] Have you got a precise location so that we can ascertain the location more precisely please (through Google Earth etc) ?

Lift Off Oversteer see HERE ... and HERE and HERE Video.
Usually to dig through the ice the wheels will have to be in the same position for some moments (eg spinning wheels) - she may have also aquaplaned first or gone over ice first then as the car was re-gripping she unable then to control it. She might also have hit the throttle and gone into a secondary skid, hard to know with out more info - but she may not remember well or enough or even not recall clearly .... many people cannot believe what they may have done but skidding has fairly specific 'routes' but the more info know the better diagnosis. Sometimes the initial cause is mechanical too so it can get very involved.
oversteer - & Lift off oversteer - see above.
So she span several times ?
Does she recall if the front of the car went onto the leftside verge first and then the rear of the car swung around onto the verge and then she proceeded going backwards down (what was) her near side verge. (The near side being the passenger side of the car and the driver's side being the off-side.)
(the nearside being nearest to the curb.)
Ah right OK - major trunk routes are typically gritted as a priority.
Because all major trunk routes are gritted more frequently - varies of course but I would suspect in very icy conditions every 6 hrs or so depending on the ice state, but the aim is to keep major trunk roads clear of ice - for all emergency vehicles ...
Well MIST (HERE) but in principal, warmed air meets colder air, so droplets form and fall causing mist or rain (etc eg hail) but if fine and land on shrubbery = mist and frost if weather gets colder and icy ..., then if in a local area only then in shaded areas of road ways or bridges etc., etc ...

Well much is in the highway code - see sections from 226 (Adverse Weather conditions and 229, 230 and 231. or HERE
Then you can talk to people who are into learning more about driving, read some of the many books on how to drive better and better car control. Go on courses to learn how to recognise conditions that may become a problem etc .....
Have to look at HERE

We are happy to analyse that is fine. But the point here is that there might from what you write that just because some method of driving is OK for 20 miles that when 'something' comes up you want a marker or something to *tell you* there is a problem, but there was never a time in that trip where the driver should never stop *thinking* about ice and any localised road condition problems. To always be prepared for changes and always ready for different problems during every mile traveled will help to keep us safer. There are no guarantees, we have to do everything we can to be as aware and capable as possible, ensuring good attitude and excellent observations, NONE of us are perfect and we are all still learning.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Thanks for your reply

Not sure about that. Please detail what those indications were.

IMHO, there are innate and subliminal senses of responsibility and awareness
in the majority of drivers. Certainly, my Daughter is responsible, and her driving record suggests a good state of awareness. However, isn't it the relative level of sensibility that's the most important aspect?

I need to ask her.

Have done this. How will that help you, please?

Yes, many times.

Wife confirms that first the car span anticlockwise into the other lane then returned, smoothly spinning, to the correct lane. Finally meeting the nearside verge, correct side, going backwards until the collision.

Every 6 hours? Can you tell me where that info comes from, please?

I know the section of road as a shaded micro-environment (not macro) . Best authoritative summation I've found here, especially in Section 4, http://www.springerlink.com/content/n84 ... lltext.pdf
I understand that important influences such as Cloud Cover(satellite), Relative Humidity, Dewpoint and & Wind Speed (in-road static sensors) are ALL factored into ice-prediction, with the alerts to review being set at 4C and 2C. In the case of the carsmash site, prevailing wind+no cloud cover = advection and so, probably, more loss of roadheat . Preceding days' weather was dry, and Relative Humidity low. I'm not sure, then, where the moisture came from, other than the wooded bank to the South of the site.

Mmmm, compare the lack of descriptiveness in their ..'be prepared for the road conditions to change over relatively short distances' ...and.....'Drive extremely carefully when the roads are icy. Avoid sudden actions as these could cause loss of control'..... with this (much better) from the Institute of Advanced Motorists, (here http://www.iam.org.uk/pressroom/driving ... ngtip1.htm
Yet neither source educates the reader about the fact that Black Ice is likely to be invisible. Or how to recognise it when it's not. Isn't that an encouragement to try to decide when to continue taking a risk?

I applaud.............. 'DO NOT drive in these conditions unless your journey is essential' . That is now precisely the advice I am giving to nearest and dearest.

Just a small cautionary note, if I may! Whilst I'm not disagreeing with anything in those links or video clips, I think it's worth pointing out that those demonstrations were all done on surfaces where you didn't suddenly go from a grippy surface to a slippy surface part way through the manoeuvre! Also, not all front wheel drive cars behave the same. The basic principles apply to anything, but some cars are "better" at it than others and often, rally cars will be modified to make that sort of response more extreme. It depends on loads of things (like the car itself, it's size, weight, weight distribution, suspension geometry, load conditions, brake balance, tyres (and their pressures etc). In particular, I take issue with the advice on one of the pages that to get the car back into line, you put your foot back down on the throttle and the front wheels will "pull" you back straight. I'm not saying that can't happen - clearly, the videos show it happening, but it won't happen when the front wheels have nothing to "pull" on! For every person that has successfully "pulled" themselves out of trouble by doing that, I'll wager there are several hundred that just made things worse! The transition between damp tarmac and black ice (especially on ordinary road tyres) is so extreme that I very much doubt there would be many people who could "catch" it in time under the circumstances described in SamandBen's daughter's accident. Some of the best advice I ever had was from a (fairly successful) race driver who said "forget the heroics, there comes a time when the best thing you can do it stand on the brakes, say your prayers, and wait for the scenery to stop moving"!

I must admit, there have been times (maybe only one or two) when going into a four wheel drift, instinct has said apply the brakes and despite all the normal procedures it has worked!!! Ice is one of those driving experiences that always catches the best drivers out no matter how many times you experience it , it is always different and every occasion leads to a different action or reaction and different vehicles always respond differently so there is no GUARANTEED way of getting out of it. The only way to learn how to drive on ice is to DRIVE ON ICE. Don't be afraid to experiment with bad conditions but do it where there are no other vehicles or obstacles to hit. When it snows find a deserted airfield or large car park and have a "play", it's suprising how much you learn but like anything else in life, you can digest and know as much "theory" as there is out there but unless you can put it into practice it is WORTHLESS.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

As they say "practice makes perfect" and although I don't claim to be "perfect" at driving in bad conditions, it is not something that I shy away from because I have covered many miles on snow and ice and I respect it but also am not afraid of it. It's no use reading all about what to do if you find yourself sliding because when it comes down to it you will forget anyway. The only way to learn is to experience it in controlled conditions and then when it happens, "for real ", instinct will take over and , hopefully, your reactions will be the "right " ones.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Whenever I buy a "new" car (most of mine are at least 15 years old), the first thing that I do is take it to a quite road or car park and find out its limits for braking, sliding, handbrake turns etc in the wet or poor conditions, then when I'm driving it normally. if I do hit a patch of diesel , ice or just extremely wet conditions, hopefully, I won't be caught out by it's "unusual" handling characteristics.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Indeed. Vrenchen always switches to "winter tyres" and I have to admit you discern the difference.

Each skid will be different in my opinion anyway. Each car will be different.

You also have to be aware that each thing we do is "unique" to that moment and you may not replicate identically each time you do something. It will be similar .. but not quite identical

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Indeed.


You learn most by DOING.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Mole.. Graball .. Mad Mogsy


All sound advice. Eack skid will be different and yes - you can learn how to cope by experimenting in safe and controlled circumstances. AS Mole points out - not everything goes to plan and theory> You also have to understand the mechanics of the car - as Mole has also pointed out

Graball and Ted each point out that each skid or incident out there will be unique to itself - and we can learn from each one and try to apply that knowledge when confronted by something "similar - but still unique to itself" which is what I think Ted's saying.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I absolutely agree with the recent posts above each skid is different and can develop from one type of skid into another either self induced, from lack of experience, or deliberately to retain control, or to enable avoidance of objects etc.

I felt by showing example links it showed the principals as a starting point for a discussion in this crucial area of car control.
I have had a few skids on the road, my first (back in '85) from wet leaves collected on a corner and did a secondary skid and parked beautifully on the other side of the road, and I rang Paul and he showed me what I had done wrong. I went off (v anxious) to the Skid Pan Course at Thruxton Race Circuit, and had a fabulous time and loved it. I should not have worried at all ! (but because all the experience you have then is 'fear from loss of control' that is all that you know.) At the course I learned so much about skid principals and tried many many scenarios including the great cops & robbers 'chase' which was fab ! The instructor was excellent. We later went back to the course taking all our friends who had been on the basic course and got loads of anti-hijack training in too. I have always practiced where I can and (with permission of course) on old run-ways.
I would be keen to see many skid pan's opening up and much more training being encouraged and within 2yrs of driving on the road a compulsory course, IF not enough people took the voluntary one's.
Once learned it is a skill that you can carry in your Driving Toolbox, from just a few short hours !
I am NOT trying to say I know it all here - far from it - I try to get in as much practice as I can, but I know that I have a lot of experience that can help me, if I have ever mis-read a road or condition. The training will help, BUT I would always rather read the road better and not get into it in the first place. When I have had a skid, I will dissect every aspect prior to the event and figure out what went wrong with my observations and why I had not 'observed' better and most importantly what I can do better and learn from it. I am still, and will always be learning.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

hey cheers to you Claire and Charles/Mole/graball.


Must dash now . More chatter later but "dinner now served and my wife .. has made an effort to dress up for me

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