Safe Speed Forums

BW, I only joined the forum a month or two back and I'd read from many longer-term members that you talk crap, but thought I'd reserve judgement and give you a chance. However, based on this evidence it looks like everyone was right - you do talk complete crap.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

How true. With the obvious exception of car drivers who think it's "tough shit" if you're stuck behind them, these are the among the most selfish drivers on the road.



Hey bw, we've got TWO things in common! We're both appalling pedants, and we both drive Clios. Imagine....



Presumably this is some way of overriding the driver's ego....and superego?

Normal, sensible drivers who are being overtaken in a safe and sensible style are neither "downtrodden", selfish" nor "stupid". Those self-styled arbiters of driving standards, one of which you appear to be, who will, when being overtaken, do everything in their power to thwart the overtaker - accellerate, move into the centre of the road, close up to the car in front or whatever - are "selfish and stupid", not to say positively homicidal.

In extremis, if I was making a sensible and safe overtaking move and someone like you decided to prevent me from pulling back in by closing the gap to the car in front or accellerating, putting me and anyone in the car with me at the time in extreme danger, I would have absolutely no compunction whatsoever in putting them into the scenery.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Those, like BW, who are always at the head of the queue, can have no concept of what it's like sitting at the back of the queue they've caused.
I had it again this morning.
A lorry doing around 50mph collected a queue of about 10 cars behind him, and I encountered the back of said queue. Was the queue doing a nice steady 50mph? Not on your life!. Brake lights every few seconds, and speeds were down to 30mph at times. I was keeping my distance from the back of the queue, in order to minimise the effect of these speed variations, but they still affected me. As were others in the queue.
Maybe BW is right. In order to have a stress-free drive, you need to be at the front of the queue, and tough shit to all the poor sods behind you.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I don't remember writing that Johnnytheboy



That's quite a bolt and controversial statement Pogo, but it is one which I must whole heartedly agree with.

If I started an overtake which I believed to be safe, and it was baulked by some "born leader" then as I see it, it comes down to killing or seriously injuring myself and any passengers, many of whom would be loved ones, and quite probably killing an innocent third party.

Given the choice of killing the above (me and the 3rd party) or killing the arsehole who thought they'd teach me a practical lesson, then I'm sorry BW, it's you who deserves it much more than anyone else.


That said however, like posters above I'd probably be past you and moving back in by the time you'd noticed. Watch out for the bits falling off my illegal, un-MOT'd car though. I'd hate for you to run over something....

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Look, fellows, as callow youths, we’ve all been through the 2.5 Litre, ZXi, DOHC, 16V, Turbo, Alloy-wheels,GT, Spoiler, Fuel injected blah blah blah years. There’s nothing new about jamie’s urge to “unleash full throttle” on unsuspecting slowpokes. The image would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad - almost like mugging pensioners!

Bu if we want to improve things, the idea is to move away from such immature, atavistic, paranoid, “screw-you” driving styles and to adopt a conciliatory, unrushed and diplomatic mode of driving. That way, we display our maturity to other, less able drivers, and we show patience and forbearance to other humans who share our road space. I know the urge to lash out and “floor it” is strong, and I know that men, in particular, are susceptible to advertisements and shows like Top Gear which exploit feelings of general emptiness and frustration in order to flog cars to blokes. But as we all know, ultimately, “screw-you-ism” only brings on more “screw-you-ism”.

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I stole this .sig

I know – one way to limit stress is to chill out, and go the speed you want
with some nice “middle of the road” music, although you mustn’t drive in
the middle of the road!

But, fun aside for once, there is a trade-off, I admit. In the rush period, I
might get 60 out of the old heap, to help you out, 317, pogo and duffie,
but it’s also very nice being chilled – you should all try it for a bit, to see
what it is like. It’s also good for fuel consumption, and reduces wear and
tear.

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I stole this .sig

I don't think it's that controversial a statement... In my opinion, taking those sort of "anti-overtake" measures is nothing short of attempted murder, and I consider it not unreasonable to make adequate provision for "self-defence". If my "attacker" should suffer as a result, sorry but he should have thought about that before he started.

I've not had cause yet to have to be so "physical", probably because I drive quite a quick car and although I've had other drivers try and close gaps etc, they've always been too late, so you just get "the headlights" (grey-hair-display excepting ) but I've seen it done on numerous occasions to other motorists in ways that have left me white with rage at the actions of some of these "upright citizens"... Fortunately, so far, I've not seen a catastrophic shunt resulting from this, more usually an "Oh Sh*t!..." type of "bits knocked off, three-into-two will almost go" incident. Potentially the worst I've seen was mitigated by a quick-thinking driver of a 38-tonner who used a layby, a strip of verge and a couple of small road-signs to avoid a people-carrier containing a family of about seven who'd been "hung out to dry" by a BW-clone!

There's never a copper about when you need one!

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Thanks for your feedback, Nemesis. Please let me know when you have finished growing up, and then we can have a proper chat. Good lad!

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I stole this .sig

Lets start with this bit first. I suspect that Jamie was making a tongue-in-cheek remark when he wrote this piece about 'unleashing full throttle', yet you have now made it the centrepiece of your blah. This does not represent the way I approach the task of overtaking a slower moving vehicle, nor I suspect does it most others here.



If the only way you can make your point is to use the most vivid, colourful, extreme metaphors and examples then you have no point at all. This does not represent the vehicle I drive nor does it create a metaphor for the way I drive it. Again, I suspect this remains true for the majority of the others here.



Society is a complex mechanism yet here you attempt, again by use of extreme example, to assert an degree of 'rightness' on one group where no such right actually exists. By and large those who wish to overtake others on the roads are no more in the right nor wrong than those who choose to progress at a more sedentary pace. Each group should recognise the right of the other to progress in the way that they see fit, and to assist each other when and where appropriate.

FWIW, during my advanced driving test I was expected to make progress where safe and appropriate and that included overtaking slower moving vehicles. And lets face it, the IAm is considered by many to be a fuddy-duddy organisation whose membership comprises late middle-aged men in tweed jackets and caps

PS. No, I do not wear either of the aforementioned garments so please do not insult me by making this off the cuff remark the cornerstone of your next round of guff.

It would have been far better if you had explained or justified the apparent crap that Nemesis was responding to. It looks like complete crap to me too. Here it is again:



It'd take a massive dose of twisty-turnyness to make those words into something sensible, and I for one would like to see you try.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Surely you can see that if you have to boast about getting lots and lots of “head lights” from many different drivers at different places, the common problems is YOU, not the other blokes! Either that, or you didn’t have your glasses on!

You are a smart guy, pogo - maybe you should give up this driving malarkey for a bit, while you think it through?

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I stole this .sig

That’s easy. Lum described his paranoid ‘stealth tactics’ for overtaking
slowpokes:



This technique is designed to remove ap priori knowledge of the
overtaking manoeuvre from the ‘overtaked’ (BTW: removing any
possibility of the ‘overtaked’ reacting positively, leaving more room,
pulling to the side etc. but that isn’t the main point).


The main point is that if the ‘overtaked’ doesn’t know, he is incapable of
reacting “selfishly and stupidly”, as the paranoid Lum and Pogo (who think
the worst in other drivers) would expect.


If the capacity of reacting “selfishly and stupidly” is removed from
the ‘overtaked’, then it is by definition reserved for the overtakers – they
are the only ones who can act selfishly or stupidly because they have
kept their overtake secret! So you are wrong yet again, safespeed, albeit
in a rather amusing way!

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I stole this .sig

Let’s recap – I said it was tough shit to be stuck behind, and you seemed to argue with that. So I agreed with you – “if Yokel is stuck behind a slowpoke, it ISN’T tough shit”. And now you argue with that! Which way round is it, Yokel – is it, or is it not, tough shit to be stuck behind??? Let me know when you have made up your flippin’ mind, man!

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I stole this .sig

No, I'm still none the wiser BW.

Just an FYI - your Clio is fuel injected, so clearly by your own statement you are a boy racer also?

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BW, you're about as accurate as a tabloid journalist. Kindly point out where I stated that I get "lots and lots of headlights"... I drive quite a high mileage and I get flashed at by a few self-righteous twats during the course of my travels, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers of stupid stunts that I see committed by this type of driver.


Indeed I am... Smart enough to have been driving for 40 years without having an accident (other than in competition driving which doesn't count and being run into whilst stationary at the tail of a queue a couple of times), during which time I've done well over a million miles, raced and rallied at up to European Championship levels, won at least one British Championship, coached high-performance, track day and racing driving and even tought advanced driving to policemen... So I reckon that I must be doing something right.

Now... What motoring credentials do you have that you should be slinging criticisms and ad-hominems around like confetti?

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Yeah – you are right – if Jamie says that nonsense about 'unleashing full
throttle' was just his way of having a bit of fun, we could let it go
with just a note about the effect such sentiment has on impressionable,
younger drivers. But if any driver really has mad delusions like that, we
are in deep trouble, I’m afraid, and we have to stamp that kind of
language out.






Thanks for those kind words – they are all pieces of blurb from real cars
I’ve had! They are a product of the car culture that we are bombarded
with all the time. Ridiculous as it seems, some people really do fall for
that sort of bull from the car companies!




Society is a complex mechanism yet here you attempt, again by use of
extreme example, to assert an degree of 'rightness' on one group [/quote]


Thanks you for taking me to task over that – however, overtaking by
stealth, as described by Lum and Pogo, reflects badly on the entire driving
community. Only drivers have it in their power to display more tolerance,
patience and diplomacy on the roads. We owe it to pogo, lum and Jamie
for allowing us a glimpse of their distrust, impatience and loathing towards
slower drivers. Thanks, fellows, for dragging this rotten stuff into the light!




I always figured you had a handle bar moustache, and wore plus-fours.
What are you wearing right now? Most of my stuff is from Tesco and Next!

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I stole this .sig

You're still making no sense.......
The technique that Lum describes sounds like a very safe way of overtaking - aim to spend as little time as possible on the opposite side of the road, and anticipate dangerous selfish stupidity from the overtakee so that you can compensate. Overtaking is not necessarily an aggressive manouevre, nor is it necessarily a derision of the overtakee's driving.

I also don't believe 'overtaked' is a word - try overtook, overtakee or overtaken.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Stamping out language now are you??

Bloody hell

You just get better and better BW. No danger to you though I'd bet. I'm guessing you're neither young nor impressionable.

So unimpressionable in fact, that no matter how much your arguements get cut to shreds, you STILL believe you are right. What a laughable creature you are.

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"Overtaking by stealth" as you call it, doesn't (in my opinion) reflect anything other than a desire to perform the move safely and free of interference from those high in self-esteem and low in ability. I can't speak for "Jamie" and "Lum" but I am very patient towards my fellow road-users, I certainly loath very few, though I will admit to a very high level of distrust. When I first started driving after passing my test, my advanced instructor (ex-Hendon) told me that I should "consider every other driver on the road to be a complete idiot, that way you won't be too disappointed".

I don't have a problem with most slow drivers, they have their reasons, as do I if I wish to travel a bit quicker. The ones I have problems with are those few who consider themselves arbiters of what is right - when they are patently not competent to make that judgment for anyone other than themselves.

"Slow" does not equal "safe"... "Fast" does not equal "dangerous". However, "bad driving" equals "dangerous" and "good driving" equals "safe" - regardless of velocity, as to be "good driving" the speed has to be appropriate for the conditions.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev