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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:27 
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basingwerk wrote:
Sorry for the typo, I should have said:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:20 
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basingwerk wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
OK, I reckon we can all summon up a mental image of someone who won't move out of the centre lane. So what do you mean by zig-zagging?


I won’t take that tack if you don’t mind, but that is a good idea, so let's push this mind game a bit further, and we might show something.

Can I take it that the mental image you summon up always has you as the person behind ? It is never the mental image of you as the person in front, is it? Could it be that you are perfect and have never done that? Hm.. I doubt that.

Of course I'm not a perfect driver, and of course on occasions I've held people up by not returning to L1 promptly enough. In all truth there is an element of the trial and error approach in how we deal with this, and how we gain this judgement of what an appropriate sized L1 gap is. In time we become aware that it doesn't "feel right" to cruise past a large gap in L1, in the same way it doesn't "feel right" to constantly zip in and out every 50 yards. This is what I meant by "common sense" - I was using the term as a figurative metaphor, not with your literal meaning of "most popular thinking". Please accept my apologies for not explaining this strange concept of "common sense" earlier.

Regarding the "rule of thumb" thing, the point you seem to have repeatedly been ignoring is that most people are well capable of making the correct judgement, and indeed if asked rationally would do so quite clearly (showng how common common sense is, perhaps? :wink: ), but when they take to the motorway they drift off into a state of lazy semi-awareness, as typified by your remarks about "cruising". To my mind a good driver "drives" down the motorway, he doesn't "cruise". It should be an active process, not a passive one.

As regards the "visualisation" thing, surely the important thing is to visualise the other perspective. When I am passing a vehicle in L2 I visualise being in the car behind and whether he would expect me to move into the next gap, and when I'm in the car behind I visualise being in the car in front, and whether it would feel reasonable for him to return to L1.

As far as this debate goes, I have actually been considering both perspectives. I have visualised how I drive along the motorway, sometimes overtaking with other vehicles catching behind, at other times catching vehicles in front. It actually seems to me that you are the one not considering both angles, thinking solely in terms of the passive "cruiser" drifting along in L2 with an ever growing tailback. You really need to consider both angles!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 14:06 
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JT wrote:
As far as this debate goes, I have actually been considering both perspectives


And that is laudible. Any messsge from the HA to the effect that druvers should 'move over and let fast drivers past' is so vague and open to misinterpretation that it is not worth making, the actuality being that drivers need to consider broader perspectives than this. I wonder who authorised this action and why? Thier mission statement says that they are 'Managing, maintaining and improving England's motorways and trunk roads'. Perhaps they are more interested in throughput that safety?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 14:27 
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I would merely say that good lane discipline, sensibly interpreting the HC rule stated above, aids both safety and throughput.

The more we can encourage the middle lane owners club to actively participate in the driving process, the safer we'll all be.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 14:59 
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JT wrote:
The more we can encourage the middle lane owners club to actively participate in the driving process, the safer we'll all be.


I would agree with that as long as the Speedy Gonzalez brigade do not interpret that to mean they are entitled to tailgate, harass or cause agro to any road user, whether they be in the middle lane, or in any lane.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 15:44 
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basingwerk, when being asked to define 'zig-zgging' wrote:
Can I take it that the mental image you summon up always has you as the person behind ? It is never the mental image of you as the person in front, is it? Could it be that you are perfect and have never done that? Hm.. I doubt that.


This is like having a discussion about garden features and asking someone to look through the window at the tree in the garden
They respond with a verbose procrastination about how windows are made of glass which is a compound of silicon and suggest you don't look through it but beyond it etc etc. All very fascinating and utterly irrelevant, but it makes them look real smart.
However, in conducting this discussion I have now lost the will to live, goodbye.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 16:09 
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Rigpig wrote:
However, in conducting this discussion I have now lost the will to live, goodbye.


:lol: Please don't do anything silly. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 17:18 
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Rigpig wrote:
Did you get your head shoved down the toilet a lot when you were at school? :wink:


Are you still at school? Have a nice weekend!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 17:21 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
However, in conducting this discussion I have now lost the will to live, goodbye.


:lol: Please don't do anything silly. :lol:


If wishes were horses....

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 17:42 
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basingwerk wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Did you get your head shoved down the toilet a lot when you were at school? :wink:


Are you still at school? Have a nice weekend!


Oooh, you did didn't you :D


basingwerk wrote:
If wishes were horses....


And if "if's" and "ands"...... :wink:

Have a good 'un yourself you argumentitive old so-and-so you :P


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 20:30 
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Rigpig wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Did you get your head shoved down the toilet a lot when you were at school? :wink:


Are you still at school? Have a nice weekend!


Oooh, you did didn't you :D


basingwerk wrote:
If wishes were horses....


And if "if's" and "ands"...... :wink:

Have a good 'un yourself you argumentitive old so-and-so you :P


So, goodbye from this edition of "Any Questions". We'll be in West Wittering next week, when our panel will be ... :lol:

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 Post subject: MIDDLE LANE HOGGING
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 19:07 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
ULTIMELY THE BLAME (OR SOME OF IT) MUST LIE WITH THE Department
in charge of roads at the start of the Motorway ere -DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT -

SOME OF US ARE PROBABLY OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE FIRST SET OF RULES FOR MOTORWAY DRIVING BROUGHT OUT WITHOUT THINKING - A CLEAR CASE OF SPEAK THROUGH SEAT OF PANTS AND RUE IT FOR A LONG TIME

"THE LEFT HAND LANE IS THE SLOW LANE, THE MIDDLE LANE IS THE FAST LANE AND THE OUTSIDE LANE IS THE OVERTAKING LANE" OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT.

MANY MOONS LATER THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD DRIVE IN THE LANE NEAREST TO THE HARDSHOULDER THAT WAS SUITABLE /SAFE WAS INTRODUCED.

TOO LATE - THE DAMAGE WAS DONE.

Some time ago a police officer of a few years service mentioned that he suspected that senior officers had an "IDEAS CUPBOARD" - in times of doubt the went to the cupboard, opened it and used the idea that fell out.

This seems like one of those cases - years ago the same idea fell out -Leics police introduced an unmarked vehicle to stop congestion by stoping
drivers in the middle lane when the inside one was empty. This idea was seen on the M6

IT WORKED, CONGESTION /DRIVER FRUSTRATION DROPPED - THERE WAS NO STOP GO BECAUSE OF SOME PRAT SITTING IN AN EMPTY MIDDLE LANE WITH THE INSIDE ONE EMPTY FOR HALF A MILE AHEAD OF HIM.

But in years gone by HGVs were not all limited to the same (give or take a few MPH) - THE SLOW ONES used the inside lane the faster ones passed them by and fell back into the inside lane in side usualy a short distance, cars could use the most suitable left lane.
So apart from getting the traffic police back out from behind a speed gun on to the motorway to educate "THE MIDDLE LANE MORTGAGE HOLDERS" WE SHOULD AS CAR/VAN DRIVERS BE FIGHTING FOR A BAN ON LIMITERS.
LETS LET TRAFFIC FLOW AT IT'S OWN PACE -THAT MEANS NO /LITTLE BUNCHING


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 23:55 
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The Centre Lane Owners Club (CLOC) are indeed an irritating bunch and basingwerk you seem to be a member. I will not deny that there are times when staying in L2 is the only way to make safe progress Your requirement to have a clear definition of what is a gap and what isn't is just plain daft, driving is a skill and given the countless scenarios that confront every driver, every day there is no difinition. It is, and will remain a judgement call.

As a rule of thumb if in L2 with a car closing from behind why not consider the possibility that if the car could pass on the left safely it would be wise to pull into L1 and let the car pass in L2. If there is a stream of traffic closing then fair enough don't pull in if you know you are going to be pinned behind a vehicle you can see 1/4 of a mile up the road. BUT if the stream of traffic has large gaps and the vehicle ahead has a clear road ahead then perhaps you could pull in, close the gap, pull out, pass and move in again and actually have no effect whatsoever on L2 traffic,,,,,,or is that overzelous zig-zaging? Perhaps it is dependant on another factor,,,like relative speed, will you close that 1/4 mile in 30 seconds or will it be 2 minutes.
If you can give that one small scenario a suitable, understandable definition then consider the addition of an on ramp, then add a roadworks warning sign, then chuck in some rain. I'm pretty sure from you clear definition you will reduce it to something like we already have in the HC.

Let's turn the whole scenario around and move into congested traffic. There may be a requirement for L1 traffic to move into L2 to allow the oncomming traffic access. This means a proportion of L2 traffic will need to move into L3. CLOC members regularly foul this up because they are in their lane. L1 traffic can't move out, oncomming traffic can't pull on so L1 reduces to a standstill and in a matter of seconds there is a traffic jam. I've seen the signs on the M4 lit up to show a L1 closure to force this action and it seems to work because even CLOC members can't foul it up with good warning as the observant drivers have time to clear the way.

This sort of driving does of course require awareness, mirror checks, concentration and a thought process which is probably seen as too much effort by CLOC members. They would be called on to guage not just speed but relative speed, perhaps anticipate the intentions of other road users,,Ohhh, far too much effort.

Why not try this as a rule: Try to drive in such a way as to have minimal or no effect on the speed and direction of other traffic.
and once you've tried that add: Give way to other traffic if you intention to do so is likely to be clearly understood and have a minimal affect on your own speed and direction.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:57 
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tinytim wrote:
The Centre Lane Owners Club (CLOC) are indeed an irritating bunch and basingwerk you seem to be a member…. your requirements are daft…


Thanks for your tips. There are two Centre Lane Owners Clubs - those who tailgate because they are aggressive, and those who tempt others to tailgate. Tailgating is never a good idea, although staying in lane 2 sometime is, as recommend by the IAM. I can assure you that I am in neither club.

IAM wrote:
Your cruising speed will probably mean that you spend a good proportion of your motorway journey in the centre lane, so move over (after the usual mirror and shoulder check and right-turn signal) when it becomes necessary. Return to the left-hand lane whenever it is reasonably clear after overtaking has been completed. Return to the left when you can, but do not do this so over-zealously that you end up constantly skipping from one lane to another.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:49 
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basingwerk wrote:
There are two Centre Lane Owners Clubs - those who tailgate because they are aggressive, and those who tempt others to tailgate.
I'd have thought the former were the Lane Three Owners Club. You know, :twisted: the ones in the silvery grey Beemers and Audis that you mentioned. Kidding, I do know what you mean (I think). The idiots who tailgate you for being in L2 because they don't think you're overtaking the L1 traffic fast enough, but who can't get into L3 because of a stream of other drivers just like themselves who are already there? :) The latter type of Middle Lane Owner are your typical "thumb in bum, mind in neutral" type, which is one reason why I agree with you that we could do with less of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:51 
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I drive in Germany form time to time. It is not often that I am stuck in conjestion doe to lane hogging.

Most of the motorways are still only two lane. Opening into thee at a junction the going back to two again. Trucks are BANNED from the ovetaking lane at peak times so no problems there. Generaly speaking cars move out overtake and move back in again. If you are stuck in the outside lane you get flashed by the car closing in on you at speed!

When I go south on the M1 from the Midlands I notice that the left two lanes are where the main traffic is. whe I get past Luton this migrates to the two right hand lanes. As if you are going to get there any quicker... :lol:

I always drive in the left hand lane when it is clear. When it is not I am forced to use the middle lane. I do not wander from lane to lane. If see some one is closing behind me. No problem.

However there is no excuse for someone pottering along at 50mph in the middle lane when the left hand lane is empty. Even trucks cannot get passed. I have seen this so many times.. :evil:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 13:34 
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basingwerk wrote:
IAM wrote:
Your cruising speed will probably mean that you spend a good proportion of your motorway journey in the centre lane, so move over (after the usual mirror and shoulder check and right-turn signal) when it becomes necessary. Return to the left-hand lane whenever it is reasonably clear after overtaking has been completed. Return to the left when you can, but do not do this so over-zealously that you end up constantly skipping from one lane to another.


Yep, and it also says:

IAM wrote:
Poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Britain, and it can occaisionally play its part in an accident by causing frustration and unnecessary lane changing, and by shifting too much traffic into the right-hand lane. Far too often (my bold) on motorways you see strings of cars bunched up needlessly in the right-hand lane, queueing up to pass a few people drifiting along in the centre lane.


It also says that overtking on the inside is illegal!


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 Post subject: centre lane hogs
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 16:41 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
MESSAGE TO TINY TIM -

I CHOOSE TO IGNORE YOUR REMARKS LIKE BASENWERK (sorry if i spelt it rong chum).

YOU FAILED TO READ THE HISTORY LESSION, LIKE PRESCOTT AND BLAIR

I CAN ASSURE YOU THE I DO BELONG TO THE MIDDLE LANE CLUB/THE OUTSIDE LANE CLUB OR ANY OTHER CLUB - I DO NOT EVEN HOLD UP BMW OWNERS
I HAVE DRIVEN MOTERWAYS SINCE THE M1 STARTED AT SHEFIELD AND MY POST REFLECTED MY VIEWS - I DRIVE REGULARLY ON THE M1/M6 IN VEHICLES FROM TRANSITS TO HI PERFORMANCE
I have more than 1million miles on my licence, held for almost 40 years
with no more than 3 points at any onetime and my insurance is peanuts
I am not an old fuddy duddy, i do and can drive fast , safely, i learned to drive on west highland roads, probably worse than welsh roads--


STOP GOVERNING VEHICLES --LET DRIVERS DETERMINE THE SAFE SPEED TO DRIVE AT (WHAT SAFESPEED IS ALL ABOUT!!!!!) AND LET'S HAVE TRAFFIC POLICE EDUCATE THE MAJORITY AND FINE THE MINORITY (WHERE WOULD TINY TIM BE?) LIKE IN YEARS OF OLD -


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 23:29 
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botach Hi, I am somewhat puzzeled by your post and it's relevance to my comments, I seem to have offended :cry: which was not the intention perhaps you have made some incorrect assumptions as I did with basingwerk. So, for starters, I have no problem with your views or previous posts, in fact I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you have said. My comments were made against the discussion that was going on in which the suggestion was to clearly define when a driver should pull into L1. In my view this is not possible and the requirement is "daft" (perhaps too strong?). My issue with the people who drive in the centre lane regardless of the situation, is that they remove a great many options from other motorway users and I highlighted 2 contrasting situations to show the effect.
As regards your driving record , it is impressive, I've not been walking for as long as you've been driving and only have 20 years on the road (accident free until last Friday when I was shunted in a 30 limit). I also have never had more than 3 points on my licence, don't support the current speed enforcement policy and drive everything that moves on the road. My regular drive is the M4, M5, M6. I learned to drive in Hampshire, and gained most of my initial experience in Germany, so safe, high speed, motorway driving is also in my lsit of achievments. (WHERE WOULD TINY TIM BE?). In neither group, not really in need of educating, although always open to advice, and quite evasive when it comes to roadside photography, although with a sensible speed policy I probably wouldn't be in the frame. As for age, well I can't get saga insurance but I may have been breathing when you were learning to drive.
I am honestly puzzeled by your response :?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 14:59 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Tinytim - Hi.
I suspect that the comment about being a member of the middle lane club offended both of us - certainly me - mrs b certainly complains about my time exceeding the speed limit in the outside lane - but i am a product f the old school - learnt to drive(SORRY PAUL, TO DRIVE TO PASS MY TEST) in a city -
GOT A CAR , had to convince father/various uncles / & uncle tom cobley as was the fashion at that time that i could drive.
Thats wat is rong with the roads today. The skills of the "oldies" are not being passed down. And if the oldies try to pass on skills, the kids just ignore them.


SO IF I SNAPPED , FORIVE AN OLDIE (BOTACH (AS NEAR AS I CAN REMEMBER) IS SCOTTISH GAELIC (HELP PAUL) FOR OLD MAN)


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