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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 15:35 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Any one found a way of keeping a 2 second gap in peak flow - when you are sitting in one lane - at a constant speed - with a gap in front.The lane inside/outside you slows and immediately some idiot (usually with a coathanger blocking his/her vision in the driver side rear ) decides that they could fit in there - taking away your safe braking distance .
OK ,you move back and another idiot moves in.AD INFINITUM
And all to let mee man(or mee woman) progress another 5 yards, with your safety compromised.
OK there is a way , be as bad a driver as they are and close up the gap.
Problem then is that they will be in the gap behind , on your back bumper.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 15:45 
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botach wrote:
Any one found a way of keeping a 2 second gap in peak flow - when you are sitting in one lane - at a constant speed - with a gap in front.The lane inside/outside you slows and immediately some idiot (usually with a coathanger blocking his/her vision in the driver side rear ) decides that they could fit in there - taking away your safe braking distance.


Honestly, I never have much of a problem with this. Sure I leave a decent gap and sometimes folk pull into it. Even if 15 folk per hour pull into your safety gap (and I've never seen it as bad as that I don't think), the maximum you lose is about 30 seconds in the hour.

I think the main problem, really, is not that people pull into your safety space, but that you're worrying about it.

You were talking about "peak flow conditions" but mostly in peak flow conditions, all three lanes are moving at around 55mph and little lane changing takes place.

So, at least initially, my advice is not to worry about it and drop back whenever necessary to maintain your safety space. If it seems particularly bad on a particular occasion, you might try a different lane. In slightly less than peak flow conditions, L1 often has more available space than the other lanes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 16:39 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
M6 ,between 8-930 jcn 3 - 6, or MI APPROX 1600 J15 - 18?
THATS WHERE THE WEAVER BIRD HIDES OUT.
I've been driving too long to let it worry me, it just shows the selfish mentality which leads to accidents.
I do drop back to keep a safe gap - most often to see it imediately filled


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 16:55 
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botach wrote:
M6 ,between 8-930 jcn 3 - 6, or MI APPROX 1600 J15 - 18?
THATS WHERE THE WEAVER BIRD HIDES OUT.
I've been driving too long to let it worry me, it just shows the selfish mentality which leads to accidents.
I do drop back to keep a safe gap - most often to see it imediately filled


I must say I'm a little baffled - how many folk per hour do you think move into your safety space? Have you ever tried counting, out of interest?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 20:27 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Its not the quantity - but the quality that upsets me - this is probably a cause of the wave effect - drivers leaving a gap - next thing some prat in adjacent lane thinks that your lane is moving faster - pulls over and next thing we have heavy braking - simply because they just force their way in.

Time is not a consideration - safety is -
We see all sorts of advice given on tailgating - tailgating is done either deliberately or through ignorance.
These idiots cause a tailgate effect - at times the only cure is heavy braking to preserve a gap - with possibility of rear end prang


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 20:55 
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botach wrote:
Its not the quantity - but the quality that upsets me - this is probably a cause of the wave effect - drivers leaving a gap - next thing some prat in adjacent lane thinks that your lane is moving faster - pulls over and next thing we have heavy braking - simply because they just force their way in.


The real risks in these situations are definable in terms of

time the event exists / total time

If you lift off gently as soon as someone pulls in front, you might be closer than you would wish for 10 seconds or so. If this happens 10 times in an hour the total risk is something like 100/3600, compared with a risk of 3600/3600 for a perpetual tailgater. It doesn't seem to me to be much of a risk compared with the risk facing the regular tailgaters.

I really do feel you're worrying too much. At first you said that they "immediately" filled your safety space - but they don't do they? They do it a dozen times an hour or less.

Can I recommend a mental trick? Everytime someone causes a risk and you react to it early and effectively, give yourself a little mental pat on the back and feel superior for creating safety despite the fact that a fool was trying to take safety away though ignorance.

(I hope I'm helping here... :) )

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 22:23 
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I'm with Paul.

I used to worry tremendously about this. I used to react in the car with mutterings.... and drop back.

Now... I barely notice it - yet I think it happens more... but when my better half drives she retaliates (but is also getting better, I think by example from her hubby).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 01:07 
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I don't KNOW if it's the same "botach" but I read a post on another forum, by a poster of the same name, complaining of exactly the problem our botach has complained of AND about vehicles 'cutting in' approaching roadworks and applauding HGV drivers who "block the approach".


Botach - get real. YOU are the problem. If you leave a safe and appropriate gap what the f*** does it matter if somebody fills it? And get your mind sorted out on lane merging. Merge when it's necessary - not 100m before.... or 500m before.... or 1000m before etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 02:53 
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botach

Paul's advice is sound....

Think you are worrying bit too much here. At least you anticipate that the chap with the coathanger or the child Disney sun blind fixed to window may not see you as he has obscured his vision.

And I am honour bound to warn anyone lurking or posting here - do that in my patch - Durham - and my guys will be 'avin' words about it! :roll:

(Note ... will not prosecute ... but will give lecture on road safety and you just have to smile and nod! :lol: )

Can appreciate why you worry more about the bloke behind you being too close for comfort.

Is this your perception? Try a very light feathering of your brake pedal to alert the bloke behind to back off a bit ... That sometimes works.

Never do heavy brake to teach a lesson or indulge in anything which may be construed as a road rage sign ...

But ... if you try to do as Paul suggests ... you should find you will start to worry a lot less. Just ease off, retain your gap, and tell yourself you are a much better and alert driver - and feel even more superior when numpty rear ends someone or gets pulled for obscuring his view with his coat :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 21:42 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Can i answer these items seperately.
YES - OBSERVER - IT IS I.BUT THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE ME CULTURE IN ANOTHER POST - MERGE I AGREE BUT IN TURN.
I WAS REFERRING TO THE SELFISH MINORITY WHO FORCE HGV DRIVERS TO ACT AS A ROLLING ROADBLOCK TO MAKE THEM MERGE IN TURN IN ADVANCE AND KEEP TRAFFIC MOVING, RATHER THAN THE DOGFIGHT AT THE BLOCKOFF POINT WHICK JUST CAUSES LARGE TAILBACKS AND ROADRAGE.
RATHER THAN MERGE AT A OPTIMUM DISTANCE THESE PILLOCKS FORCE THEIR WAY TO THE FRONT .
IT IS NOT HELPED BY THE DRIVERS WHO HAVE MOVED OVER EARLY PREVENTING OTHERS DOING SO I.E MERGE IN TURN

I AGREE THAT IN A PERFECT WORLD ALL WOULD MERGE IN TURN - BUT AS THE AUTHOR OF THAT ITEM SAID - IT AINT.

AS FOR A GAP IN FRONT I AIM FOR A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE GAP AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE SOME PILLOCKS NOT JUST READING BUT APPLYING PARTS OF THE HIGHWAY CODE
1) MIRROR, SIGNAL ,MIRROR, IF SAFE EXECUTE.
2) NOT SURE IF SAFE - DONT DO IT
THE PROBLEM IS WAS SAID IN THAT OTHER POST - A TOTAL LACK OF COURTESY ON THE ROADS TODAY BY PEOPLE IN TOO MUCH OF A HURRY, TURNING ROADS INTO RACETRACKS AND GIVING THE ANTI SPEED LOBBY AND ANTI CAR LOBBY THE AMMUNITION THEY WANT.

IN GEAR - in the area i mention you find that it is not just one pillock moving over with little or no warning - it is probably more creating the wave effect - all of a sudden a lane can go from 50/60 to 25 in a very short space - ask any one who uses this area - hence the heavy braking. under normal circumstances i have used light tapping of the brakes to try and indicate to wally behind that i think he is too close - but have seen this read as road rage.
And yes - paul i have done that trick - my back gets sore - i prefer to be a live coward than a dead hero, with a loss of face rather than a loss of no claims bonus.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 00:11 
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botach wrote:
RATHER THAN MERGE AT A OPTIMUM DISTANCE THESE PILLOCKS FORCE THEIR WAY TO THE FRONT .


What do you mean/understand by "MERGE AT A OPTIMUM DISTANCE"?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 00:36 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Most places where a lane/s is/are closed are posted WELL in advance - where to merge is a matter of common sense and "optimum" is dependant on the site -
What causes the frustration is when the majority merge in turn, keeping traffic flowing to find one or two forcing their way in where the narrowing starts to cause a bottleneck.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 00:38 
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Observer wrote:
botach wrote:
RATHER THAN MERGE AT A OPTIMUM DISTANCE THESE PILLOCKS FORCE THEIR WAY TO THE FRONT .


What do you mean/understand by "MERGE AT A OPTIMUM DISTANCE"?


Was wondering that myself, mate.

Think he may mean they tootle along... in the empty-ish lane ....and then zip-merge in at the head of the queue :roll:

Errrr :oops: errr..... we do that .... make use of all the lanes and then zip-merge... :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 00:46 
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botach wrote:
Most places where a lane/s is/are closed are posted WELL in advance - where to merge is a matter of common sense and "optimum" is dependant on the site -
What causes the frustration is when the majority merge in turn, keeping traffic flowing to find one or two forcing their way in where the narrowing starts to cause a bottleneck.



Ahh! The zip merge.....

You should move up here mate.... We are now putting up signs telling people to zip-merge. Mad Doc has reported one near the Bolton Reebok Stadium (he took his sons to a match there recently). He was impressed with the sign and the way it worked on way down to M61 slip.

Makes more sense to use all the available road space. Sometimes ... they close off these lanes far too early which adds to the problem.

What distance are we talking of, botach? Mile? Half-mile or a few yards ... in which case ... they are being a bit cheeky... :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 01:01 
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botach wrote:
IN GEAR - in the area i mention you find that it is not just one pillock moving over with little or no warning - it is probably more creating the wave effect - all of a sudden a lane can go from 50/60 to 25 in a very short space - ask any one who uses this area - hence the heavy braking. under normal circumstances i have used light tapping of the brakes to try and indicate to wally behind that i think he is too close - but have seen this read as road rage.
And yes - paul i have done that trick - my back gets sore - i prefer to be a live coward than a dead hero, with a loss of face rather than a loss of no claims bonus.



So ... a case of failing to get in lane until very last minute caused by lane closure...which inevitably leads to congestion in rush hour traffic. All you can realistically do is just give space for them to merge into your lane as they are going to have to do this at some stage. Happens on various bits of the A1.

Does the chap behind flash lights or gesture at you? Concentrate on what is ahead and possible escape routes. Agree - poor driving on part of "road rager" behind. Trouble is ... if he should rear end you (his insurance headache)... we only roll up if there is an injury or you suspect drink .


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 01:18 
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In Gear wrote:
Makes more sense to use all the available road space. Sometimes ... they close off these lanes far too early which adds to the problem.

What distance are we talking of, botach? Mile? Half-mile or a few yards ... in which case ... they are being a bit cheeky... :wink:


Exactly. Not a very satisfactory answer from botach. The zip merge is obviously the most efficient way of conjoining two or more lanes of traffic but he's rather imprecise on how it should be accomplished. The point at which the merge should happen, for maximum efficiency, depends on the speed of traffic approacing the bottleneck. At a crawl, it will be a few yards - at 50mph it may be 150-200 yards. The key to making it work is that all vehicles should allow a sufficient gap from the car in front (in the same lane) to allow at least one vehicle in the 'other' lane to merge ahead.

This business of leaving a 'safe gap' is pivotal to reducing hazards in virtually all driving scenarios. I can't think of any other driving tip which would do more for road safety. It would ease congestion as well.

I suspect you probably agree on this IG?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 01:34 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Talking bout the idiot that drives right up to start of cones then forces way in, we.ve had "MERGE IN TURN SIGNS" DOWN THIS WAY 4 YEARS where 3 lanes off a roundabout go into 2.(gives midland man a chance to chance to prove they cant read)
No - i've seen this at all hours on the m6/m1 -even seen a massive jam on the m1 at about 3 in morning caused by this sort of lunacy-only sorted out by hgv acting as road block.
But up your way -InGear - a sense of courtesy still existed when i last visited.


other one - InGear - about the "weaver bird" - seen all sorts of behaviour when brakes tapped. Bit too long in tooth for digit waving or headlamp flashing to bother me.Let them rage all they want - a coolhead avoids accidents.
Without becoming a member of cloc - i have found that when a mway gets to that stage safest place is middle lane - fewer heavies but certainly very few whitevanman or sales reps.
The bit about road works was brought in by someone else digressing from thread - WHY?
I was interested to see if anyone else had a solution


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 01:34 
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I do indeed .. Observer mate..

:wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 02:03 
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botach wrote:
Talking bout the idiot that drives right up to start of cones then forces way in, we.ve had "MERGE IN TURN SIGNS" DOWN THIS WAY 4 YEARS where 3 lanes off a roundabout go into 2.(gives midland man a chance to chance to prove they cant read)
No - i've seen this at all hours on the m6/m1 -even seen a massive jam on the m1 at about 3 in morning caused by this sort of lunacy-only sorted out by hgv acting as road block.
But up your way -InGear - a sense of courtesy still existed when i last visited.


Perhaps two reasons ... people see us out and about.

They know there is a danger of running across us.... strange concept .... old fashioned policing..... :wink:

Surprising .. they behave even better when I am in a car with "Police" emblazoned all over it than they do when I am in an unmarked or my own car.... :roll:

Also ... perhaps our A1 is slightly less congested than the M6 around Midlands.

Think the problem is nore one of traffic density from what you describe.

botach wrote:
other one - InGear - about the "weaver bird" - seen all sorts of behaviour when brakes tapped. Bit too long in tooth for digit waving or headlamp flashing to bother me.Let them rage all they want - a coolhead avoids accidents.
Without becoming a member of cloc - i have found that when a mway gets to that stage safest place is middle lane - fewer heavies but certainly very few whitevanman or sales reps.
The bit about road works was brought in by someone else digressing from thread - WHY?
I was interested to see if anyone else had a solution



I think this is why we see so much Middle Lane Hogging .... lot of people keep saying when I have pulled for quiet chat about this that L1 "goes off somewhere out of my way" or as you do "they feel safer as they do not have to keep lane changing"

Botach mate.... in L2 .... look ahead at all the traffic in L1 and if you decide that you are going to cruise at your faster speed in L2 and overtake the lot of them ... then by all means stay in L2 until you have passed them. Then return to L1. Nothing wrong in that. What is wrong is to stay at slow speed in L2 when L1 is empty of traffic. :wink:

If there is a sign saying a lane is closing ,, then be prepared for slow moving traffic and a zip-merge situation.

Always make sure that you give space and have sufficient time to stop in comfort. If this means easing off and holding back, then do so...

No easy solutions to busy road conditions ... we just have to live with it and use our skills to defend ourselves frim the numpties.

If we are present ...the just the sight of the car helps.... :wink: (Though it has been know for certain idiots to brake for us :roll: I would much rather see you notice me, slow it down gently and continue at the very sedate legal speed limit for as long as I am behind you with me "speed catcher general gadgets" locked on ot you. This proves you are observant and provided I see no "child killer" instincts ... may let you off for the short 95mph blat in front of me .... as I ... er ... ahem .. did today when supervising a young blood....
:wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 02:38 
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My daily commute involves 4 miles of the M60 and M56 in Greater Manchester, which typically take about 12 minutes to traverse, and where the average speed is usually less than 30 mph, and often zero.

As far as possible, I try to maintain a steady speed and keep moving, even if this involves letting a gap open up in front of me. I'm sure that if more drivers did this it would overall greatly improve traffic flow and throughput.

It's also important to know which lane you want at junctions and get in the appropriate lane well in advance.

Unfortunately there is a breed of impatient drivers who insist on diving into any gap that becomes available, even if overall it won't improve their progress.

This behaviour also encourages "concertina braking" back down the queue.

In congested conditions, it would be sensible for the Highway Code to advocate
  • getting in the appropriate lane as soon as possible
  • avoiding weaving between lanes
  • keeping, as far as possible, a steady speed at a safe distance behind the vehicle in front
I'm sure all this pointless, impatient weaving overall significantly reduces throughput.

I do get mildly wound up by this behaviour, but it doesn't alter my driving approach, and perhaps a few in-car expletives act to reduce the tension.

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